Page 1 of 1

The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:44 am
by captrakshitsharma
Not a very well written piece but nevertheless the media is highlighting this issue. The writer took a lot of info on the difficulty one has to go through to get an arms license but hasn't mentioned it in detail....

Also a few things are a misquoted. The part where he mentions waving the gun to scare off someone I had quoted, "It's something on which I cannot advice someone as to when to use a gun, one has to make a choice for themselves as far as I am concerned the gun should only be when you feel it's a matter of life and death or crimes such as rape and if pulled out one has to be prepared to use it".

He had asked where should people aim to hit in a SD scenario and whether one should aim at the legs what I had said was, "That if one has to use a gun then the situation has to be serious enough where one knows that the other person has to be stopped and taking a life is justified. Aiming at legs will be difficult in a SD situation as you will not have time to decide as to aim specifically at the legs and may not do you much good in terms of stopping an assailant. Also why use a gun in a situation where just injuring some assailant is all that is required".

He however does mention that I had advised gun owners "to practice and be proficient with their firearms and be well prepared".

Read on.... and request all of you to write to the editors of the publications covering this topic and give them more inputs, including the editor of The Week which otherwise wrote a good article.

Please highlight the difficulties and the flaws of the licensing system when you write to them. It's a medium for us to send our concerns to the society and educate the public. If enough is said and written the politicos will also start paying attention.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120731/j ... 793954.jsp#
To office, revolver in handbag

- Self-defence in mind, working women in Delhi apply for gun licences

IMRAN AHMED SIDDIQUI
New Delhi, July 30: Marketing professional Sapna Arora’s (name changed on request) days are a hectic rush around Delhi. But wherever the 31-year-old goes, she never forgets her .32 revolver.

“Delhi has become very unsafe for women. Because of my job, I often return home late; so I applied for a gun licence last year and bought the gun. Earlier, I used to carry pepper spray but that’s not a strong enough deterrent,” she said. “The revolver makes me feel safe.”

Sapna, who has received the routine weapons-handling training the police impart to new licence holders, says she wouldn’t balk at pulling the trigger if the need arose.

She isn’t alone. There has been “a new trend” of working women in Delhi applying for gun licences in the past couple of years, a senior police officer said.

“Earlier, some women would ‘inherit’ gun licences by applying to have their deceased fathers’ licences transferred to them. But of late, women applicants have been citing self-defence,” said M.K. Tiwari, additional commissioner (licensing department),

Sharmila Singh, a senior media professional, too plans to apply for a firearms licence.

“Since I’m outdoors most of the time and return late at night, I carry a knife and a pepper spray in my handbag. But that’s not enough if four or five people surround you on a lonely stretch at night,” she said.

“I think firearms have become a necessity for working women considering the rise in crime against women in the capital.”

Tiwari, though, admits that the number of women who receive gun licences isn’t high considering the number that applies. (See chart)

[ Image ]

“We have rejected many women’s applications because they failed to justify the threat perception they claimed,” he said.

The Delhi police say that 20-25 per cent of the 200-300 gun-licence applications they receive a month on the ground of personal safety come from women. This means just 2-3 per cent of these women applicants are successful.

An officer said the police consider several points: whether she lives alone, returns home alone at night, has been harassed or accosted by men, and lives in a crime-prone area.

Sarita Agarwal, a north Delhi teacher who quit her job to look after her elderly in-laws after her husband was transferred to Bangalore in 2010, described how she was denied a gun licence.

“I applied for one after a rise in burglaries and robberies in my neighbourhood. But the police said there was no threat to me as so many people lived in the locality. I suppose they would accept I faced a threat only if criminals barged into my home and killed us all.”

She added: “A friend later told me that you need to be well-connected to get a gun licence easily.”

A senior officer who wouldn’t be quoted corroborated this, saying that if an applicant can get a recommendation from a politician, bureaucrat or senior police officer, he gets preference “even if he doesn’t fit the criteria”.

“The gun culture in northwest India makes a gun licence a status symbol for many men,” he said, suggesting trigger-happy men can often get a licence more easily than a working woman genuinely fearful of her safety.

He cited an example eerily similar to the Jessica Lal murder: “Last year, a man shot in the air after he was served cold food at an upscale restaurant.”

Sapna said she had no “connections” and was “lucky” to receive her gun licence. “During the interview, I told the cops how I was once accosted by some youths on a deserted street,” she said.

Male perspective

An example additional commissioner Tiwari cited as proof that high-risk women aren’t denied the licences suggested the police have a very male interpretation of “threat perception” and tend to ignore the gender-specific threats women face.

“She owns a big jewellery shop in Delhi,” Tiwari said about an applicant, “and considering the threat perception, we granted her a firearms licence.”

Most of the men who receive gun licences in Delhi on the ground of personal safety are businessmen such as jewellers who make “huge financial transactions daily”, an officer said. He acknowledged: “The criteria for both men and women are similar.”

Of the about 1,000 men issued gun licences in Delhi every year, Tiwari said, 50-100 are shooting enthusiasts, 500-600 get the licence for personal safety, and the rest “inherit” it. “The majority of the licences are given to politicians, army and police officers and bureaucrats,” he said.

Rajya Sabha MP and Congress spokesperson Renuka Chaudhary, who carries a licensed revolver for self-protection, said the police should issue more licences to women as they need it more than men who “want to flaunt it (their gun) at weddings”.

“The police may be discriminating against women because of social stereotypes: they cannot digest the fact that women too can keep guns.”

Chaudhary rued the police’s failure to keep Delhi safe for women but added: “It’s good that they (women) want to arm themselves with guns for self-defence; I appreciate it.”

She told The Telegraph: “I have a German-make revolver which I carry in my handbag. So far I haven’t shot anybody but I have used it many times to intimidate people who try to come too close, especially during election rallies. Now people know that I don’t carry lipstick in my handbag but a revolver; so they maintain a safe distance.”

The guns can cost a packet, though.

“Indian-made .32 revolvers cost between Rs 70,000 and Rs 1.5 lakh but imported ones, which can cost Rs 3 lakh to Rs 6 lakh, are better,” said Rakshit Sharma, secretary-general of the National Association for Gun Rights in India (Nagri). Sapna’s, made by the Indian Ordnance Factory, cost her Rs 70,000.

Sharma said whether a woman should simply wave the gun to scare off potential attackers or shoot at them or merely fire in the air is something they must decide.

He said one school of thought maintained the women should target the attackers’ legs but added that this requires a very accurate aim. “Besides, the situation may not offer much reaction time.”

He had a piece of advice for women like Sapna: “Train well to use the gun, and use it responsibly. Bring it out only if there’s no other option.”

Seema Malik, who runs the NGO Mirchi Jhonk which spreads awareness among women about the use of chilli powder for self-defence, welcomed the new trend.

“Carrying chilli can be a deterrent against one or two attackers but the sight of a revolver is enough to scare away a group of men,” she said.

But Madhu Kishwar, a woman activist, said guns were not the answer.

“I am in favour of disarming people who have guns as I believe safety does not come from the gun. It’s true that a goonda culture exists in Delhi but guns cannot be the solution. What we need are strong laws and an efficient police,” she said.

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:16 pm
by miroflex
captrakshitsharma wrote: - Self-defence in mind, working women in Delhi apply for gun licences
IMRAN AHMED SIDDIQUI
New Delhi, July 30: ...

But Madhu Kishwar, a woman activist, said guns were not the answer.

“I am in favour of disarming people who have guns as I believe safety does not come from the gun. It’s true that a goonda culture exists in Delhi but guns cannot be the solution. What we need are strong laws and an efficient police,” she said.

Nobody denies the importance of strong laws and efficient policing. But why deprive gun owners of their weapons which provide a valid protection in the last resort and are a deterrent to violence by criminals.

Regards.

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:31 pm
by captrakshitsharma
I second that and as I said please write to the editors of these publications.

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:52 pm
by mundaire
Good work Rakshit! :) As always the ignorance/ naiveté of the anti-gunners is almost nauseating, do they really expect "strong laws" to make citizens safe? When was the last time a criminal/ sociopath picked up a law book, read the laws and said to himself/ herself, "damn, that stuff I was planning is illegal, I better not do it!!". :evil:

Yes, a more efficient police is a requirement towards making our society safer. However the police (howsoever efficient it may be) can merely act as a deterrent, failing which it can investigate the crime (efficiently) AFTER THE FACT! An efficient investigation is not going to bring much solace to the victim(s) of violent crime. Even if the efficient police catches the culprits and even if the court convicts them, does that in anyway take away the physical & emotional scars/ hurt of the victims? Can it bring someone back to life?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:46 pm
by goodboy_mentor
These anti gun activists are either ignorant or pretending to be ignorant. Legally there are two kinds of law enforcement machinery, one that of State and other that of citizens in individual capacity. Why it is so? Because there is equality before law under Article 14 of the Constitution.

When a person is acting as per Sections 96 to 106 IPC, he is doing nothing but enforcing the law in his individual capacity just like State. Also as per Section 43(1) of CrPC he has the right to arrest any person who has done a cognizable offense and hand him over to police. Thus again he is acting as a part of law enforcement machinery in his individual capacity.

Therefore the question of disarming the citizens as demanded by the antis is absolute nonsense.

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:10 pm
by Skyman
Funny, will an efficient policeman be provided for every citizen? One's well being should be ensured by his own self.Otherwise it will become a case of " My Daddy will beat you up when he comes ".

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:32 pm
by timmy
captrakshitsharma wrote: - Self-defence in mind, working women in Delhi apply for gun licences
IMRAN AHMED SIDDIQUI
New Delhi, July 30: ...

But Madhu Kishwar, a woman activist, said guns were not the answer.

“I am in favour of disarming people who have guns as I believe safety does not come from the gun. It’s true that a goonda culture exists in Delhi but guns cannot be the solution. What we need are strong laws and an efficient police,” she said.

Nobody denies the importance of strong laws and efficient policing. But why deprive gun owners of their weapons which provide a valid protection in the last resort and are a deterrent to violence by criminals.
Ms. Kishwar, like many other anti-gun people, constantly changes the point we RKBA folks make. She is talking about guns as a broad social policy and whether it will make women safe as a whole. Obviously, there are many issues that play into the state of women in society which are valid and need discussing.

However, that is not the point we bring up. Our point is related to that lone, frightened woman in a dark section of town who has no other choice than to be there and walk, perhaps even regularly, so that her movements are well-known. She does not care about policies, as policies don't affect her safety on a given night.

Ms Kishwar, while you are off doing your social engineering and policy think tank exercises, just please let the poor woman exercise her RKBA and let her have a gun to protect herself! Your theories may eventually work, or they may not, but while you sing-song and shilly-shally about big issues, someone is in dire straits and needs a personal solution NOW, and the best solution is also the constitutional one already provided to her: the availability of a personal handgun with enough ammunition for her to become proficient in its use.
However the police (howsoever efficient it may be) can merely act as a deterrent, failing which it can investigate the crime (efficiently) AFTER THE FACT!
and
Funny, will an efficient policeman be provided for every citizen?
Exactly so! This whole situation is analogous to what is known here in the USA as a rural volunteer fire department. This establishment is formed in rural areas, where people donate money and buy a fire truck and equipment, and volunteers are the firemen. When an alarm rings, everyone quits working, runs to the fire station, and rushes out into the countryside to put out the fire.

As you may imagine, it takes quite some time to gather and rush out some distance to the burning house.

A common quip about such situations is that "They got there in time to save the chimney" (which is the only thing that won' burn, because it is made of brick).

That's just what we have here! So the police investigate, maybe they are able to apprehend the criminal, and maybe even more unlikely, the criminal is sent to jail. So, everyone gets to put a gold star on their performance report: the police worked efficiently and the court system applied justice correctly.

But what of the poor woman? Who can pay her back for the mental torment she will suffer for the rest of her life, or who will pay back for the trauma her family suffers on her behalf? Those are costs that cannot be paid back. So I think it is a little smug for someone to think that the whole matter is tied up neatly with a ribbon and a bow because the police are dispatched and justice is done.

The system only addresses the problem after the house is burned down. It only has the power to save the chimney, and that is not enough ! It is high time for these social engineer types and policy wonks who insert themselves into the social discourse as self-appointed experts and advocates to accept that they are not just dealing with theories, but that they are affecting people's personal lives.

That is why I find their response that denies the ability to access personal protection and the means of self defense as having been weighed in the balance and found wanting.

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:49 pm
by goodboy_mentor
Excellent and very clearly articulated response as always by timmy!

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:22 am
by captrakshitsharma
Bravo Timmy pls write to the editor of this news paper .... I am sure the site will lead you to an online link...

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:26 am
by prashantsingh
Good one Capt. Saab.

I have always wondered.
Would a politician's son ever shoot Jessica Lal in a high society bar?
OR
Would the son of a Inspector General (Police) rape and kill Priyadarshini Mattoo in her uncle's residence?
IF
They had both known that the two ladies were armed and could very well defend themselves?
Maybe Yes. But more likely No.

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:40 am
by captrakshitsharma
Doc Saab , Timmy and all my friends, the opportunity is now, the media is clued in. Read today's TOI Delhi edition ( 3rd page article on increase in sale of illegal guns) and send your letters to the editor and the journalists in further highlighting the Flaws of the Arms Act, unfair practices of the M H A and Trauma associated with getting an arms license.
The journos are talking about the small numbers of licenses being issued and also realise that 99.9% crimes are committed with illegal weapons. Please bombard them with letters so they write more. Hopefully we will be able to change things.Interestingly the article in TOI today has included an email address of the reporter who penned it ( dwaipayan.ghosh@times group.com ), which I don't see with other articles. I think he wants us to right to him.Please don't forget to mention that TOI today itself has at least 3 Reports about crimes in which criminals have used illegal guns. Cant even remember how many violent crimes took place in the past week and how many criminals have used illegal guns to commit them. I say the average illegal gun crime in Delhi is 2 a day.
Strike the iron while it's hot. This is the best time to start our unofficial media campaign. I request everyone to start writing to news papers and magazines. We must react to all pro or antigun stories. If we keep quiet we will loose the battle. We need to talk beyond the forum as this is just preaching to the choir. So I again appeal to my Missionaries of Gun Rights reach out to the uninitiated and enlighten them. Thanks .....

Rakshit.

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:20 pm
by winnie_the_pooh
Nice article.Rakshit,thanks for posting this and for the inputs you provided to the journalist.

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:03 pm
by Vikram
winnie_the_pooh wrote:Nice article.Rakshit,thanks for posting this and for the inputs you provided to the journalist.
+1.

Timmy,

You nailed it.


Best-
Vikram

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:16 am
by captrakshitsharma
Thanks Winne and vikram , Just doing my little bit... The media is very interested in women gun ownership issue. More than 6 different tv channels news papers and magazines are talking to NAGRI . Let's make the most of this ...

Re: The Telegraph Story on Women and Guns

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:01 pm
by Virendra S Rathore
Indeed .. good point to use the media. We groan when the media isn't favorable to our cause.
We have to make them favorable
More Strength to NAGRI !! :cheers: