Challenging the prohibition on the import of firearms.

[HSharief]

Again, Bravo and best of luck. Here's my 2paise. In addition to yourself and our Delhi Darlings, maybe you should try to recruit folks from other states for state level support. State and City governments have issued GOs that may help our cause and I know the more help we can get, the better (Ek se bhale do). Maybe also try to get some guidance from NRA-ILA (US) and (shudder) NRAI. I'm sure we can use all the help we can get, but at the same time, don't want to get crowded and lose steam/focus. Setup a good process to pursue the goals, wait, setup specific, measurable, achievable, results-oriented, time-bound (SMART). Short-term and long term, area-wise (central/fed govt vs state). Going for it all may not be practical, it maybe too big, so maybe go after it one at a time, air-guns, pellets, ammo, accessories, removal of NPB category, on and on and on....

Best of luck, I will follow this closely. I'm sure you realize, you have a lot of eyes and hopes on you now. From the few posts you have, you seem to show a lot of promise (honhar birwan). Keep us posted.

Mods, maybe I'm getting too excited, but could we have a sub-category under RKBA for Manmeet's progress reports .

(non-alcoholic for me)

[raimanmeet]

Thanks everyone once again for the overwhelming support. I recognize the need of more people joining as a team before we go ahead. Its not a small task and will take months as hard work from all of up. In the next few days I will post the sample RTI application and the procedure for the same that can be used by the members to seek information.

I also propose to keep all of you updated in cases where new licences are refused on flimsy grounds and will give detailed procedure how to challenge the same before the appellate authority as well as before the High Court under article 226 of the Constitution of India. Just give me a few days to finish a few personal commitments and you can hear back from me by May 12.

My motive to challenge import on firearms is not that I am against ones manufactured in India. But to have more people to have access to arms legally at prices that are affordable. I would like to see Mahindra or TATA manufacture weapons. Recently the Hon'ble Defense Minister did say that private players should invest in weapon development. I also will file a RTI to the Defense Ministry seeing information about how much money is spent to import foreign manufactured weapons.

Thanks once again for you support.

[winnie_the_pooh]

raimanmeet,

Are you aware of this

http://www.mha.nic.in/pdfs/AaAMPolicy080410.pdf

[raimanmeet]

WTP,

I am aware of the above document. It once again is a policy and not law under Article 13 of the Constitution of India. If you read the document carefully it does state that in the past people have filed cases and their quota was increased.

"Although the quota of some firms was enhanced in the past as a result of Court judgements or otherwise, the instructions issued on 11/12/85 were reiterated on 16.4.1998, not to allow enhancement of quota on any ground whatsoever, continue to be in force at present."

I am not sure what is the point that you are trying to make here.

[winnie_the_pooh]

I am not sure what is the point that you are trying to make here.

Manufacture of arms is controlled by the Industrial Policy framed by the Dept. of Industries. The license for manufacture is given by the MHA.Since 4 companies have already obtained a license for manufacture of arms,the MHA would regularize these to enable them to sell their guns in the civilian market as before this they were confined to sell them only to the Armed forces and the State Police Forces through the MHA.

What I am trying to point out is

1.While earlier the manufacture of arms was limited to small scale /cottage industry now bigger manufacturers can also enter the field of arms sale to civilians.

2.Where as earlier the license was granted to individuals on hereditary basis now it is going to be granted to companies who would have greater resources and can assure you a better product.After all they also have a company image to maintain.

3.While earlier the manufacture of arms for the civilian market was confined to the manufacture of smooth bore SB and DB shotguns,there is no such restriction spelled out here.

Also,if you would notice,the word policy has now been removed.So infact this too has been implemented.

Since you are a lawyer,I am sure you get the picture.

I would say,direct your energies to getting a better product rather than on removing restrictions on import which would have little or no chance of succeeding.Especially not in the Rajasthan High Court(maybe in Delhi,it might).Incidentally where would you be practicing when you return?Jodhpur or Jaipur?

You would have enough material to attack the govt. policy on manufacture of arms as being discriminatory,designed to stifle innovation.creating and maintaining monopolies,leading to shoddy and even dangerous products entering the market,designed to defeat the very purpose of the arms act,overpricing, violative of MRTP(re private manufacturers) etc etc.

[raimanmeet]

@ WTP,

I humbly disagree with your views.

1. Earlier anyone could enter the firearms manufacturing market but now it is only limited to large corporate houses capable of investing over 50 Cr. as spelled out in the document you shared.

2. The companies would be more interested in manufacturing PB firearms as that would allow them to win tenders and earn money by supplying weapons to the armed forces.

3. The sector for individual right to carry arms is still in the dark with the tight licensing policy and above all if the companies are not able to meet a profitable margine in the NPB firearms it would lead to increase in their prices.

4. Ensuring quality products in the market can be done by filing consumer complaints. Private companies cannot be directed or comply to certain norms under the writ jurisdiction of the High Courts. It is a slow process and there is no cause of action at our hands. Even if we file a poor safety mechanism case in a consumer court either on IOF or any other private co. it will do more harm than good. The companies will either stop manufacturing the products and we will provide another point in the hands of anti gun supporters to condemn our movement.

5. I am also not quiet sure what was the fate of this document and if it did see it place in any further notifications.

6. I would still stick on the basic law i.e. Arms Act, 1959 and would not go into the policies of the the govt. Every new govt. has its own agenda behind these policies and unless any substantial amendment takes place to the Arms Act I would not be much convinced.

7. Although the DIPP does play a role in regulating the firearms manufacturing in India by private players but the authority is derived from the Arms Act so we need to focus more on it than on the undated and unmarked documents on the websites.

Better products will come into the market only when the Indian players will have to compete with the foreign companies. Therefore the access to foreign firearms becomes all the more necessary.

I am not a product liability lawyer and the scope of product liability is very narrow in India. It is yet to grow. If any challenge is made on the ground as enumerated by you i.e. on the ground of MRTP, overpricing and other factors it will be rejected at the admission stage itself. Moreover such challenges are made in trial and lower courts that have more of facts and figures than larger policy questions that we are focusing on.

I was practicing before the Rajasthan High Court at Jodhpur and will continue to do so on my return. The chances of succeeding will be a later issue and it will not matter if it is Raj. HC or any other. Law is the same. I would say that it would be difficult in Delhi because it being a capital and under constant threat of terrorist attacks. A sweeping statement of national security will wash out all other arguments. Nevertheless the litigation strategy is a different issue that we will deal as and when it arises.

Thanks four your input and do keep posting them. None of my comments or any one else's should deter you from posting what you think is right. Every comment is essential in understanding the holistic view of the scene. Every professional commits mistakes and it would be wrong on my part to say that I have not committed any. We can only improve when we debate.

The biggest problem we face when it comes to Firearms is that there has been no case in the past to guide us and the whole arms law in india has always been shrouded in secrecy.

But this should not deter us as there is not only an obligation on the superior courts to follow precedent but to set it as well; we will ensure that the precedent is set and set in our favor.

[grewal]

I cannot understand the bone of contention between Manmeet and Pooh. Let's all work towards one goal and need not distract from the main target . We will need contributions to meet financial obligations for this . I am ready to pool in, ( when and where you decide).

Regards

[amit888_2000]

Good question grewal,
for this i have personally talk to lots of people, including, nishant, anupam, and abhijeet (Mundir), once, we meet with manmeet, and this case, start taking shape, than, we will form a plat form of all willing to pool, seeing the expenses required, for the right cause.....

I myself, is looking forward to contribute in anyway required...and i am sure, we all are intrested in the same way....

anyways, request to all ifg's and others too, pls start compiling data, as much as u can, so that, we can share it with manmeet, on our 1st meeting and there on.....may be 15th june or what ever abhijeet fixes...

anyways
)))cheers!!!!
amit

[winnie_the_pooh]

1. Earlier anyone could enter the firearms manufacturing market but now it is only limited to large corporate houses capable of investing over 50 Cr. as spelled out in the document you shared.

In fact before this NO ONE was able to get a new license for the manufacture of firearms as under the old industrial policy,it could be given only on hereditary basis.They are many well connected people who tried and failed.I know of at least two.

The new manufacturing policy came about because not one of those who had got a license to manufacture arms for the armed forces spent even a single rupee as the policy then was that they could start manufacture but the govt. was not duty bound to place an order.Those who got a license were apprehensive of starting manufacture when there was every possibility that no orders might come their way due to a) pressure on the govt to buy from the IOFB and b) the first option being tempting as in case of purchase from the IOFB it is basically a book transfer

I cannot understand the bone of contention between Manmeet and Pooh. Let's all work towards one goal and need not distract from the main target .

Why waste your energy on something that has little chance of succeeding(removing the ban on import of firearms) and concentrate on something that is achievable (ensuring competition leading to cheaper prices and the manufacture of quality arms and ammunition within the country itself)

[raimanmeet]

WTP,

Why waste your energy on something that has little chance of succeeding(removing the ban on import of firearms).

I believe that we have a stronger chance of winning the case. Unless we get into it we cannot be certain of the victory. A task that is difficult should not be considered as impossible.

concentrate on something that is achievable (ensuring competition leading to cheaper prices and the manufacture of quality arms and ammunition within the country itself)

How do you ensure this? Approach the court and seek a direction to compel IOF to manufacture SIG, XD, or other quality weapons. I don't even think that such a petition even stands a chance. On what legal grounds can you do this.

How do you propose to lower prices? By asking TATAs or Reliance to start manufacturing weapons. I don't see how you can do that unless you know them personally and approach them with a business plan. Another factor is the low sales of firearms in India that deters private companies to enter the market. Let the sales go up and if we grant the ready access to firearms we can definitely see more pvt. players stepping in.

On the other hand if the export of firearms is allowed to begin with the Indian citizens will have access to better quality firearms and the sales of IOF manufactured firearms will go down. This would compel them to make quality stuff and sell it at cheaper prices to keep the money rolling.

If we can ensure a growing demand of firearms, that day is not far when the foreign manufacturers would come to India and establish their businesses here. But to do all this we have to inculcate the ready access to guns and inform people that they have a right to bear arms.

What you suggest is step two. At this stage I somehow find it very difficult to visualize what you propose.

[brijendra]

good luck manmeet ! i will support you in whatever ways i can ! the chances are bleak , but lets fight

[amit888_2000]

On the other hand if the export of firearms is allowed to begin with the Indian citizens will have access to better quality firearms and the sales of IOF manufactured firearms will go down. This would compel them to make quality stuff and sell it at cheaper prices to keep the money rolling.).

something wired in my mind ---- why manufacture - why sale ----why do debate -- if the best quality in this world is available at dirt cheap price, why not open the policy, and let indians also become dealers to foreign made arms, and import them.....let govt charge 300 times duty......done yaar.....still dam cheap....

)))cheers!!!!
amit

[winnie_the_pooh]

All the best

[raimanmeet]

WTP,

Thanks for your wishes, though sarcastic but still appreciated.

[dr.jayakumar]

manmeet,supreme thought.just go on .i am from tamilnadu.i can contribute and do my best.we will definetly succeed.