The police will protect you

[Raptor]

Raptor:
Its easy to diss someone who isnt around to defend himself.
Respect the dead.
Just curious, what credentials do you bring to this argument?did you know the slain gents? Or have you studied the after action reports? Or is it yet another case of google + wikipedia?
I ask only, because you seem quite forceful in your arguments without any proof.
Festively yours
Airborne bam bam

my credentials? Why ,sir... You are my 'credentials'!....you sign off as 'airborne' plus there is that nice pic of yours playin polo...so tell me sir can you in good conscience refute my tactitacal resoning? Would you pile into a softtop/hardtop enclosed vehicle with an entire section and go screaming off into
at hot zone on the off chance that you might flush out heavily armed terrorsists? I respect the dead..but not their follies. And the dead i respect died on the streets ,in hotel lobbies and in cafes...they were not awarded 'ashok chakra' for making the 'supreme sacrifice in face of overwhelming odds' nor were they 'accorded the special previleges that senior law enforcement types are entitled to' during their lifetimes... And I'm not dissing Mr. Karkare and his cohorts.... They paid for their ineptitude with their lives. Enough said!

[Raptor]

yes sir Moin ... as a senior officer, ex RAW etc...he should have known how to conduct a search operation. jumping into a qualis 'filimishtaar' style, which is already packed with 6 constables and 3 other senior officers is ....hmmm...'putting all your eggs in one basket' is the expression i believe...a first year cadet knows not to bunch up...prey which part of the training manual offers that stupendofantabulous advice! I'm not denying his sacrifice ...but his common sense! I'm sure the tactically oriented members are in a better position to elaborate on that..if the choose to.Unless yer a cop yourself you haven't met a nice policewala!and that sir Moin is a fact!Yes , what they do is difficult, yes there are a few good cops and yes they are human too...but you know what...they are not very humane!

Well, I grew up with one. My grandfather was a retired Supritendent of Police, a few uncles are cops, so don't quite agree. Maybe you should start an institute Sir Raptor on Training Highly Experienced Senior IPS Officers on what needs to be done in such crisis such as selecting their modes of transport so their intellignece's not compared to that of a Billy Goats.

And yes what these cops were against were highly trained motivated terrorists that even the Marcos and NSG 51 SAG has a hard time with. These guys were not run of the mill criminals with country made revolvers. Qualis or otherwise no police officer would stand a chance against automatic kalashnikov's and such trained terrorist.

you mean to tell me sir Moin that the police is trained to respond only to crims wielding kattas and if they are confronted with determined criminals...then their response is to...commit suicide? Would an 'experienced police officer' tried to take on AK47s with pistols..hell i'm not even an inexperienced police officer and I wouldn't...adulthood comes with the added responsibility of using one's head! and about starting the training institute for experienced police officers..well, i guess i could but i'm sure i cannot afford the bribes
#pS. Sir, moin Kamte saab was armed with an AK47...so your contention that the cops were armed only with sidearms is BS!

[Sakobav]

UP is a crazy place - a tragic saga I will recount - years ago early 1990s or so our neighbor a lecturer in Govt College Chandigarh cleared civil services IPS was posted as SP Jhansi. Upright officer pissed of some mafia and political goons was threatened. He had two young daughters and near diwali or daushera family is getting ready to go somewhere in the evening - they hear lot of fire crackers going of and then Aunty comes to the office to call on her husband and finds him shot dead in the room. This officer was shot dead at point blank range in HIS OFFICIAL Residence nothing happened driver cooks guards etc nada nobody claim to have seen anyone come in. A village lad who studied hard achieved everything and thats it and govt tried to portray it as suicide rather than murder!! The entire family got destroyed his old father died from shock, aunty died from cancer, eldest daughter was tortured by her in laws she committed suicide and the younger daughter left as an orphan was adopted by her maternal uncle and moved to Minneapolis. We could never find her in Minnesota - the entire family destroyed.
IAS, IFS, IPS et al are glorified positions they are helpless clueless and if you cant fight them join em !!

[xl_target]

But you are talking like those Bengali Intellectuals in Smoke filled coffee houses

Watchu talking 'bout, Willis?

Those Bengali intellectuals solve all the worlds problems many times over, every day...

[Moin.]

But you are talking like those Bengali Intellectuals in Smoke filled coffee houses

Watchu talking 'bout, Willis?

Those Bengali intellectuals solve all the worlds problems many times over, every day...

Yes Sir, they do indeed.

Best
Moin.

[Moin.]

UP is a crazy place - a tragic saga I will recount - years ago early 1990s or so our neighbor a lecturer in Govt College Chandigarh cleared civil services IPS was posted as SP Jhansi. Upright officer pissed of some mafia and political goons was threatened. He had two young daughters and near diwali or daushera family is getting ready to go somewhere in the evening - they hear lot of fire crackers going of and then Aunty comes to the office to call on her husband and finds him shot dead in the room. This officer was shot dead at point blank range in HIS OFFICIAL Residence nothing happened driver cooks guards etc nada nobody claim to have seen anyone come in. A village lad who studied hard achieved everything and thats it and govt tried to portray it as suicide rather than murder!! The entire family got destroyed his old father died from shock, aunty died from cancer, eldest daughter was tortured by her in laws she committed suicide and the younger daughter left as an orphan was adopted by her maternal uncle and moved to Minneapolis. We could never find her in Minnesota - the entire family destroyed.
IAS, IFS, IPS et al are glorified positions they are helpless clueless and if you cant fight them join em !!

God, that's horrible and so sad...

I wish for this country what Tagore captured so eloquently
.
Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high
Where knowledge is free
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments
By narrow domestic walls
Where words come out from the depth of truth
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way
Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit
Where the mind is led forward by thee
Into ever-widening thought and action
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.
By Rabindranath Tagore

[Skyman]

Everyone uses a softop or an enclosed vehicle!!!

[winnie_the_pooh]

Moin, even though you did not intend it as a compliment,but that is the first time any one has alluded to me as an intellectual

[Raptor]

Everyone uses a softop or an enclosed vehicle!!!

a soft top yes; a hardtop ...agreed but you have missed the enclosed part...you don't stuff it to capacity and when one does ...it's ambush time...by the way are there not such things as anti ambush drills and I do belive they are generally carried out through multiple vehicle moving in formations...Fervor may stand the test of time but 'assi sher da puttar' syndrome is impratical
and gets people killed.

[ak27]

The Morale of Indian Police - Seems to be a pretty touchy topic!!

I do not know(personally) of any Police Personnel who have oppressed the poor for the benefit of the rich, but yes I have seen both sides of the coin. My brother-in-law who happens to be a 28-year old Inspector is my gateway to the murkiness of the Police Department. I can with full confidence say that he is a fairly uncorrupted officer(not yet!). Even my sister, at times, has a problem with his sincerity! I can not go on and sing his virtues here but let me tell you a couple of incidents that I witnessed. Once, while at the Station, I saw him thrash three hardcore property offenders who were not being co-operative about the whereabouts of the booty. I, as a normal middle class city dweller, can't stand the sight of it and later asked him straightaway about it. He explained to me that these fellas have been targeting housewives whose husbands were out of town. One of them has even fatally injured an elderly woman. The immediate scene that flashed through my mind was that of the dreadful consequences if these guys chose my house for their next mission. I was wrong in jumping to conclusions quickly. A local white collar gunda who happens to be the God father of these crooks made some calls to the higher officials and they were out by the next day.

I remember my bro-in-law once giving 3K out of his pocket to a black-ticket selling boy, after listening to his plightful story. And no he doesn't take any bribes. Also, he is not alone. A very few of his batch-mates are much like him. I had the chance to witness the other side of coin too. Once, following a complaint, he slapped a college guy who misbehaved with a lady lecturer in the college bus. Immediately, he received a call from the infuriated DSP to leave the student at the earliest. Shortly, the college guy's father, who happens to be an ex-minister arrived at the PS and started swearing profusely at the constables and warning my bro-in-law with that typical attitude of the BIG SHOTS! The very next day my bro-in-law was made to apologize to the boy's father. If he refused, he will be suspended under some flimsy grounds or he will have to carry a bad remark sheet full of memos. Now as an icing on the cake, the local newspaper has reported that my bro-in-law took a handsome bribe and released the boy! I can not decide whether to blame the DSP or the Boy's Father or the people who have put our ministers in their offices. It's the sorry state of affairs that we live in.

Every month it is a custom to collect a sum from all the wine shops which will later be divided among the SP, DSP and the CI. My bro-in-law flatly refuses his share but, nonetheless he must collect the amount for the higher-ranking officers. Fifteen days a month he goes for night patrol at 10pm and comes home at around 4am(following repeated complaints about the night-time thefts, the DSP has ordered him to). As often as thrice a week he wakes up in the middle of the night and leaves home following a call about a robbery, criminal offense, death etc. Even I have to suffer because mine is the first number that my sister dial's when she's alone! The Police job fundamentally is a dirty job and needs a lot of patience and compassion to be carried out efficiently. But, unfortunately they are being exposed to a lot of stress from corrupt politicians and big shots. This makes them yield and loose their character(in the event that they have it!). They are just another branch of our highly corrupted system. Even I have suffered the rudeness of the Police on multiple occasions. But I personally respect the police because they are the one's who have to tackle all the hostilities and get the dirty work done for our safety.

P.S.: Just at the beginning of this month my bro-in-law has been transferred to a remote village from the city he used to work in. You know why! Poor guy has to suffer the wrath of my sister daily!

[dev]

I don't really have anything against the cops. Have had the usual encounters with them the bribe taking traffic cop, the ASI who won't lodge the FIR and all that. But when you look at the inhuman hours, the lack of resources etc. I don't blame them. If the force has to be better then our leaders need to change the laws for them set around the 1800's. I know a few as friends and I was shocked to see a rough and tough ASI get teary eyed as he was called to duty on his day off. It just happened to be the eve of Diwali.
I don't cuss the traffic cops anymore cause no one knows about them losing ten years of their lives to the pollution.

I have the honour of lifting weights with Asok Kamte when he was in college. So I feel very offended when someone talks badly about him. I would request Shri Raptor to kindly refrain from doing so.

Regards,

Dev

[Raptor]

I don't really have anything against the cops. Have had the usual encounters with them the bribe taking traffic cop, the ASI who won't lodge the FIR and all that. But when you look at the inhuman hours, the lack of resources etc. I don't blame them. If the force has to be better then our leaders need to change the laws for them set around the 1800's. I know a few as friends and I was shocked to see a rough and tough ASI get teary eyed as he was called to duty on his day off. It just happened to be the eve of Diwali.
I don't cuss the traffic cops anymore cause no one knows about them losing ten years of their lives to the pollution.

I have the honour of lifting weights with Asok Kamte when he was in college. So I feel very offended when someone talks badly about him. I would request Shri Raptor to kindly refrain from doing so.

Regards,

Dev

Sir Dev...if you have read my posts...you will notice that I have not mentioned Kamte saab even once...and you want to know the reason why? It's not because of what he did/did not do on 26/11 but because of his actions in Solapur in 2007, he arrested a politician for flouting the law and later said that 'law is eual for all and nobody has the right to violate it' ...so Sir Dev are you asking me to refrain from doing something I have not done yet? (That ought to establish your 'credentials' with our Police Department! )

Kamte saab was not the OC that night and furthermore sir to ask me to stop criticizing somebody because of your personal association is undemocratic...by your logic if today a member, claiming to 'personally' know Kasab/Mayawati/Mulayam Singh/Sonia Gandhi/Phoolan Devi/PaanSingh Tomar/Afzal Guru, asks me to stop crticizing him/her/it ,I should oblige them? I am exetremely sorry to disappoint you in such cases. And mind you I am not COMPARING Kaamte Saab with any of those mentioned...just in case you choose to misconstrue my words again!

My crticism was aimed at their strategic foresight or lack thereof, yet, you seem to consider this a personal affront. So respectfully sir, please think about what you wrote .

[Raptor]

The Morale of Indian Police - Seems to be a pretty touchy topic!!

I do not know(personally) of any Police Personnel who have oppressed the poor for the benefit of the rich, but yes I have seen both sides of the coin. My brother-in-law who happens to be a 28-year old Inspector is my gateway to the murkiness of the Police Department. I can with full confidence say that he is a fairly uncorrupted officer(not yet!). Even my sister, at times, has a problem with his sincerity! I can not go on and sing his virtues here but let me tell you a couple of incidents that I witnessed. Once, while at the Station, I saw him thrash three hardcore property offenders who were not being co-operative about the whereabouts of the booty. I, as a normal middle class city dweller, can't stand the sight of it and later asked him straightaway about it. He explained to me that these fellas have been targeting housewives whose husbands were out of town. One of them has even fatally injured an elderly woman. The immediate scene that flashed through my mind was that of the dreadful consequences if these guys chose my house for their next mission. I was wrong in jumping to conclusions quickly. A local white collar gunda who happens to be the God father of these crooks made some calls to the higher officials and they were out by the next day.

I remember my bro-in-law once giving 3K out of his pocket to a black-ticket selling boy, after listening to his plightful story. And no he doesn't take any bribes. Also, he is not alone. A very few of his batch-mates are much like him. I had the chance to witness the other side of coin too. Once, following a complaint, he slapped a college guy who misbehaved with a lady lecturer in the college bus. Immediately, he received a call from the infuriated DSP to leave the student at the earliest. Shortly, the college guy's father, who happens to be an ex-minister arrived at the PS and started swearing profusely at the constables and warning my bro-in-law with that typical attitude of the BIG SHOTS! The very next day my bro-in-law was made to apologize to the boy's father. If he refused, he will be suspended under some flimsy grounds or he will have to carry a bad remark sheet full of memos. Now as an icing on the cake, the local newspaper has reported that my bro-in-law took a handsome bribe and released the boy! I can not decide whether to blame the DSP or the Boy's Father or the people who have put our ministers in their offices. It's the sorry state of affairs that we live in.

Every month it is a custom to collect a sum from all the wine shops which will later be divided among the SP, DSP and the CI. My bro-in-law flatly refuses his share but, nonetheless he must collect the amount for the higher-ranking officers. Fifteen days a month he goes for night patrol at 10pm and comes home at around 4am(following repeated complaints about the night-time thefts, the DSP has ordered him to). As often as thrice a week he wakes up in the middle of the night and leaves home following a call about a robbery, criminal offense, death etc. Even I have to suffer because mine is the first number that my sister dial's when she's alone! The Police job fundamentally is a dirty job and needs a lot of patience and compassion to be carried out efficiently. But, unfortunately they are being exposed to a lot of stress from corrupt politicians and big shots. This makes them yield and loose their character(in the event that they have it!). They are just another branch of our highly corrupted system. Even I have suffered the rudeness of the Police on multiple occasions. But I personally respect the police because they are the one's who have to tackle all the hostilities and get the dirty work done for our safety.

P.S.: Just at the beginning of this month my bro-in-law has been transferred to a remote village from the city he used to work in. You know why! Poor guy has to suffer the wrath of my sister daily!

What surprises me Sir AK that the only people defending the cops are in someway related to them...i would have desisted but decided not to...no reflections on your BIL though...we have a saying up north which unfortunately may be applied in the present context 'saari khudai ek taraf joru ka bhai ek taraf!'

[Safarigent]

Raptor,
I am an Airline Pilot,hence the airborneforever tag, its not related to the S.F.
And that is me, on my own polo pony,participating in an IPA tournament.
So, there is no justification to be had there.
You are talking about stuff you don't know about.
Sometimes,there is a need to get something done.
People like you will sit and bemoan that they dont have the tools for the job, etc etc.
Others will go out there and get the job done and will sometimes die trying.
End of the day, if my duty asked me to be somewhere protecting the lives of the citizenry, i would do so with the tools available to me at that time and not made silly excuses.
Yes,i would have rushed to the spot at the earliest.on a freaking scooter if thats all the transportation i had.
on the off chance that you might get ambushed, you sir,will sit pretty on your hands?
You are presuming that the man himself did not see the dangers?
He might have. What should he have done? waited for an apc and let the carnage go on?
your point about the innocent people who died being in some way more deserving of your attention is specious and silly, so it doesnt even call for an answer.
i have no fight against you, and hope you see that there can be two sides to an argument.

And please, lets not make this into an 'i would have done this' and 'you would have done that'. lets not play that game.

[Raptor]

Raptor,
I am an Airline Pilot,hence the airborneforever tag, its not related to the S.F.
And that is me, on my own polo pony,participating in an IPA tournament.
So, there is no justification to be had there.
You are talking about stuff you don't know about.
Sometimes,there is a need to get something done.
People like you will sit and bemoan that they dont have the tools for the job, etc etc.
Others will go out there and get the job done and will sometimes die trying.
End of the day, if my duty asked me to be somewhere protecting the lives of the citizenry, i would do so with the tools available to me at that time and not made silly excuses.
Yes,i would have rushed to the spot at the earliest.on a freaking scooter if thats all the transportation i had.
on the off chance that you might get ambushed, you sir,will sit pretty on your hands?
You are presuming that the man himself did not see the dangers?
He might have. What should he have done? waited for an apc and let the carnage go on?
your point about the innocent people who died being in some way more deserving of your attention is specious and silly, so it doesnt even call for an answer.
i have no fight against you, and hope you see that there can be two sides to an argument.

And please, lets not make this into an 'i would have done this' and 'you would have done that'. lets not play that game.

Agreed, sir..but like you said you are an airline pilot not Airforce...so at best your tactical acumen is comparable to mine....and by the way 'Airborne ' is used for paratroopers...if one has not earned that distinction , one shouldn't resort to misrepresentation.
I am here to make friends ....however I don't need my 'credentials' challenged by others sailing in the same boat...

As for 'Yes,i would have rushed to the spot at the earliest.on a freaking scooter if thats all the transportation i had.' well sir , I'd like to believe, at least in theory that our cops had far superior modes of transportation available to them that night..unless of course the entire patrol fleet was busy providing security to Thackeray and company or worse...so let's not get into 'they did their best' mode either!

Let's take a moment to discuss what 'people like me' would have done...
Firstly how can you lay claim to what people like me are capable of? You don't know me.
Secondly 'People like me' would not have launched an ill fated patrol on scooters, no less!
Finally 'People like me' keep a calm head and get the job done. 'People like me' don't posture for an audience nor do they resort to effussive rhetoric to compensate for their common sense/lack thereof.


And now let's discuss the innocents bystanders being more deserving than the cops...yes you are right ; concern for the 'hoi polloi' is indeed specious and silly...until the time comes to ask for their votes , isn't it? We are better off patting our own backs and baskin in our own glory...the common people are mere statistical anomalies..collateral damage?