Finding the right shotgun fit

[penpusher]

1.How do you calculate the LOP?If you have to lengthen the stock do you need to add weight to bring back the gun to its previous balance?

2.What is the ideal drop at comb and heel for a field shotgun and for a trap gun?If the drop is more than ideal how can you rectify this without restocking the shotgun?Can you add a piece of wood to the comb to raise it and what are the drawbacks of this?

2.What should be the correct stock pitch?

3.What should be ideal balance for a trap shotgun and for a field shotgun?

4.Is there any adjustable butt pad and adjustable comb fitting for a shotgun stock with a through bolt.?

[mundaire]

Hey, this is stuff I'd like to know as well... anyone?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[snIPer]

The previous link was wrong -
these should be helpful

http://members.aye.net/~bspen/fit.html
http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.sho ... tting.html

http://www.ft-designs.com/takingstock.html

_***_ Optional http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_stock.htm

[Grumpy]

penpusher, that`s a whole raft of questions.......and the first answer is that there is NO actual formula for determining the LOP. There are `rules of thumb` ( `rules of forearm` more accurately ) but these are only guidelines as each individual is different. As an instance of that I can quote my own case as, since putting on a load of weight, my shoulders are heftier and I require a LOP about half an inch shorter than I used to.
The usual `rule of thumb` quoted for determining the LOP is the distance between the inside of the elbow where the forearm is bent ( the crease line ) and the line across the top joint on your fore-finger. Works pretty well for some people but can be as much as +/- an inch and a half out for others.
Before I go any further I should explain that the `LOP` ( `Length Of Pull` ) is the distance between the centre of the trigger ( the centre of the rear trigger on a double trigger gun ) and the centre of the butt/butt plate/butt pad.
On most standard modern guns this is around 14" - 14 1/2".
Note also that the amount and thickness of clothing worn will also have an effect upon the optimum LOP.
The actual optimum LOP is that which allows you to mount the gun correctly and cleanly without snagging clothing.
Gunfit is always more critical for a discipline in which the gun is not pre-mounted than it is for a pre-mounted discpline.
In general terms, the LOP is the least critical dimension in gunfit.
The MOST critical are drop at comb and the drop at heel.
The major, large volume gunmakers tend to say that the `standard` dimensions of a 14 1/2" LOP, 1 1/2" - 1 5/8" drop at comb, 2 1/2" drop at heel are `optimum` for 95% of shooters. Utter crap ! I have only one one modern gun that fit me `straight out of the box - and it doesn`t correspond with any of those three dimensions. The top bespoke gunmakers, British and Italian, don`t quote - or build - a gun with `standard` dimensions as they build their stocks to suit the individual buyers requirements.
The only way that a gun can be fitted correctly is with the use of a pattern plate.
Please read this piece by Peter Blakely, one of the best gunfitters in the UK:

http://www.peteblakeley.com/custom.htm

One aspect of gunfitting that you have completely ignored is the matter of `cast` - the amount that the stock is offset to one side or the other in order that you can look straight down the rib with your master eye without unnaturally canting your head. Again the actual amount required varies from person to person.......and a gun cast for a right hander is obviously cast the wrong way for a left hander. Volume produced guns are designed for right handers.

As regards altering a stock there are various methods that can be used: The best however is that used by gunfitters in which the stock is bent up or down to adjust the drop at comb and heel and from side to side to adjust the cast. A gunfitter can also adjust the `cant`, the amount by which the stock is twisted to allow for personal body shape. Some people require the heel bent out, some in.
Bending a stock always involves some risk and no gunfitter will guarantee that a stock will not split or snap during bending. Happilly such major damage occurs only rarely. I`ve snapped only one stock and that was a gun with a `cross-over`stock with an extreme amount of cast designed to allow a right-handed shooter ( shooting off the right shoulder ) to shoot with his left eye. It was hardly surprising that the stock snapped as it would have been made with that very large amount of cast rather than bent to shape - it was a gun that I bought in and I expected the stock to break but I figured it was a risk worth taking.
Bending a stock is NOT something that should be attempted by the amateur.
Adjustable combs can be fitted to a gun. The best is the Alan Rhone, the fitting of which is now carried out by Roy Wedlake :

http://www.krieghoff.co.uk/12.html

Trap guns that are converted to sporters have the comb cut down and reshaped. A gun that requires a higher comb can have a wooden fillet added. There are inexpensive pads that can be fitted ( such as the `Kick-eeze` - around £12 ) but these also effect the cast. There is a simple rubber comb raiser which can be stuck to the top of the comb and ground down to suit if required:
( Scroll down to view )

http://www.attacc.com/acatalog/Attlebor ... ories.html

Shortening a stock puts the balance point further forward. If the balance is uncomfortably altered - it can make a gun too lively - lead can be added to the fore-end by drilling holes in the underside of the forward part of the fore-end and filling them wth lead. If a stock is lengthened the balance point moves towards the back of the gun slowing and steadying the gun. This is not necessarily a bad thing, especially with a Trap gun or a short barrelled game gun. if the balance has to be altered holes can be drilled in the butt ( under the butt plate or pad ) and lead plugs inserted. Many guns have a convenient pair of holes already in situ, one either side of the centre point in the vertical axis.
Adjustable butt plates - including recoil reducing systems - are available from various manufacturers :
See :

https://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store ... BUTT+PLATE

and also :

http://graco-corp.com/adjustable-butt-p ... egoryId=25

Graco also supply adjustable comb systems ( amongst other things. )
The advantage of an adjustable butt pad is that other dimensions stock dimensions can be altered. The disadvantage is that they add up to 1 1/2 lbs in weight ( more for a recoil reducing system ) which dramatically alters the point of balance.

The easiest way to lengthen a stock is to fit a spacer of the required size between the butt and plate/pad......or simply to add a butt pad if one isn`t already fitted - with a spacer if necessary.

The ideal point of balance for most people is just forward of the hinge pin - within about an inch or so.

Hope this helps.

[penpusher]

Thank you sir.That certainly helps.More informative than a day of searching on the net.I do not understand why more people can't be as lucid as you on something like this.

[Grumpy]

Gunfit is a very important subject penpusher but one that is often overlooked.
A properly fitted gun is a thing of joy and can transform a shooter from a poor shot to a good shot.
A poorly fitted gun is a liability and a waste of time.
If you`re interested penpusher I can tell you how to go about bending a stock - but contact me via email as I`m not prepared to post details via this forum. There`s no way that I am going to be responsible for stocks being smashed all over India !!!

[VJ]

Guys my crude attempt at making my Spartan 310 work better for me....
I tried a friends old gun which fit like a glove and did not want to start hacking off the stock so made an aluminum plate to drop it a little and after 2 go arounds it fits really nice and think it improved my shooting. Treid posting the snap but was not able to so attache is the link to the same.


Stock


VJ

[penpusher]

http://www.grullaarmas.com/in/proceso.php is also interesting

[shooter]

another way though crude and unsightly, of increasing the pull is a butt pad extension that fits the stock like a sock or a glove and insert cardboard pieces.
as i said, it is crude but one doesnt need to make any changes to the stock and its the cheapest way.

i would like to add, as grumpy said before, the rule of thumb (or forearm) is just a rule of thumb as it doesnt hold true for people with just long fingers and normal length arms and forearms.
i was having problem selecting a 'good fit' gun and grumpy helped me a lot and this discussion can also be seen under "advice for a novice section"

may i also add that despite all this info, if one is looking to buy a gun that fits 'out of the box' , the onlly reasonable way is the pattern plate method. and as grumpy said, a novice can be very deluded about gun fit and one would be surprised how muscle memory takes over if one tries methods like cradling the gun and looking in the mirror. ( same thread as quoted above)

the gun fit concept has been distilled to an actual science and one is surprised as to how bespoke is bespoke it is not uncommon to see butt plates whose right and left halves have different curvatures and angles an accordance to the shape of the shoulder pocket.

[penpusher]

This might be useful for some of the more enthusiastic DIY types http://www.shotguncombogauge.com/combogauge.html

[shahid]

Good london gunmakers have trial guns that under expert supervision can determine what is required based on the shooters size, built, height arm lenght and posture.

For example trial gun fitments are done in the Middlesex based shooting school of Holland and Holland.

On another ocassion, a very famous Austrian Double rifle maker preferred to make accurate measurements with an ordinary tailor's tape right here in Dubai then called for a trial session in Austria.

usually for mass produced weapons like Ruger, Winchester, Remington, one buys what fits best and then goes for minor customization and adjustments from the dealer's or local gunsmith.

[penpusher]

http://members.aye.net/~bspen/fit.html

[shooter]

after all of the above has been done, there is also trigger width, curvature, these determining the pressure and whether chequering or smooth trigger suits one.

[HSharief]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned a "try gun" yet, or maybe I didn't find it in the text above. Google the phrase with the quotes for images. Most custom gun and stock makers have some sort of webspace dedicated to this topic as it is so subjective. I think its more of an art than 100% science, just like a Tailor or Chef.

All questions you ask are subjective to each individual, LOP, Cast on/off, Drop @ comb/heel for Trap (Intl), skeet or field. Adding adjustability to each of these factors may also be needed to account for weather and/or change in physical attributes of the shooter.

To answer your questions, Most of the answers are "Subjective". I will take a stab with my 2 cents at the rest.

If you have to lengthen the stock do you need to add weight to bring back the gun to its previous balance?
Ideally yes. Check this out.
http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cf ... essages=13

If the drop is more than ideal how can you rectify this without restocking the shotgun?Can you add a piece of wood to the comb to raise it and what are the drawbacks of this?
For adjustable combs, folks also use shims or spacers as it gives more flexibility. A guy I know has an adjustable comb and butt pad shotgun, which he shims up/down based on the application and time of year (winter, more clothes, LOP less). There are quite a few products available to do it for fixed comb guns. CheekEez is one, you can buy various thickness tabs. I use this on two of my shotguns

http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0010018223766a.shtml
On the same page there are other "related" comb raising options.

4.Is there any adjustable butt pad and adjustable comb fitting for a shotgun stock with a through bolt.?
It is only limited to the creativity of the stock maker. Some fill the hole with a dowel and then make the comb adjustable.

[shahid]

All bespoke GUn Maker and Rifle makers of extreme repute till this day have try guns to make all the adjustments and produce a gun just right for the customer.

Even all mass weapon producers do have some sort of facility, the very least at the local gunsmith who sells it in retail for some adjustments to fit.