URGENT! - FAO Mark and Grumpy.

[Mack The Knife]

Are stock grain and stock figure one and the same thing? I don't think so but I would like to know what you think.

Incase they are two seperate things (figure being the long continuous lines one sees and admires and grain being the small interupted lines), should one sand along the grain or figure?

We have always been told to sand along the grain but the stock I am working on at present has some curly-wurly figure and straight graining running parallel to the length of the stock. My inclination is to sand in the direction of the figure (far more difficult due to the curves) but am I right in thinking so?

This stock has already been sanded by someone in the past and there are some very dark patches, which I can only put down to as sanding against the grain.

Hence, do I follow the direction of the grain or the figure?

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

P.S.: For what it's worth, I assume the wood is American walnut as it came of a Remington 700 BDL.

[Grumpy]

`Figure` is fancy grain.......or some of it anyway. Actually it`s a lot more complicated than that but its best to keep things simple. You can`t sand in the direction/s of the figure as it gets extremely complicated and you are bound to sand in different directions adjacent to each other which makes for a horrible mess. You sand along the GRAIN - which should always be through ( along ) the length of the stock. Sanding should always be in one direction only. The major difference between grain and figure is that you CAN usually sand `across` figure without opening the grain.
If the stock is Walnut and off a Remington 700 then it will be American Black Walnut. Which isn`t black - the wood isn`t anyway - but actually generally lighter in colour than European Walnut. It`s usually best to stain it which both lifts the colour and enhances any grain and figure. There is a lot of snobbery against American Black Walnut but it can be spectacularly beautiful. The really stupid thing is that a comparable piece of European Walnut will always sell for considerably more money.
Yes, I`m sure that you`re right Dodger - dark patches are invariably due to sanding across the grain which opens the grain and allows the ingress of dirt and grease. They can be bas*ards to remove because the stain can go deep into the wood.

[Mack The Knife]

You sand along the GRAIN - which should always be through the length of the stock. Sanding should always be in one direction only. The major difference between grain and figure is that you CAN usually sand `across` figure without opening the grain.

Thanks a ton, Grumps!

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

You`re welcome mate.
By the way, when staining Black Walnut I like to use a primarily red stain with a little black added building up the colour as per usual until the desired shade is achieved - you use the same technique if memory serves me right.
I find that the red creates a richness of colour that can`t be achieved otherwise. The black just takes the edge off the red so that it isn`t obviously red.........if you see what I mean !

[Mack The Knife]

Grumpy,

I did experiment with a red stain when I started learning stock finishing (on my HW80K) but those were spirit based stains.

I shifted to water based stains some years back and so far have been using Birchwood Casey's walnut stain and Liberon's walnut stain. Ordered the latter from Axminster some years back and it actually came through the post!

I am not sure if I have any of the Birchwood Casey stain left. If not, I plan to use Liberon's walnut stain > Birchwood Casey stock sealer and filler > Liberon's finishing oil > Black Bison wax polish.

There has been one case where I left out the stain altogether when doing the stock on a Brno Mod.1 as I felt the wood was a nice colour post sanding.





In case you are wondering, water based stains are not available in India. Ditto for finishing oil.

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

That`a a nice colour colour you`ve achieved.
I thought that you could get hold of all Birchwood Casey products ?
Their `Walnut Stain` ( water based ) produces a good colour but not red enough for my taste.....although adding a little red enriches the colour.
I quite like the `Tru-Oil` because it can be used as grain filler also. Quite a high gloss can be built up.
The best finish is to use their `Gun Stock Filler and Sealer`, then stain, then four coats of `Tru-oil` then their `Stock Sheen and Conditioner`. That produces a similar finish to the traditional English hand-rubbed finish but with much less effort ( believe it or not ! ) more durable and easier to `touch-up`. Not as good as hand rubbed but much less expensive in time........which somebody has to pay for !
The Birchwood Casey Walnut Stain IS water based by the way........or water soluble to be technically correct. Stains based on denatured alcohol are OK as well - and dry quicker than water based. I thought that you were limited to oil based stains which are terrible.
Have you access to spray-on oven cleaner - the stuff that reckons that it doesn`t produce fumes ? ( `Fume` less is more accurate. ) ( `Easy Off` is good. ) If you have a really mucky stock, one with years of acquired grease/oil and muck - and dark `bruises` - ( like ex-military rifles often are ) you can spray the stock with the oven cleaner, leave for no more than five minutes and then thoroughly scrub with a stiff brush or cleaning pad. Rinse thoroughly under a very hot tap.......or use several buckets of hot water. Hang up to dry OUT of the sun and away from heat sources for a good 48 hours until really dry. The grain will be SO open !
I have an idea that I promised to tell you about that `trick` before..........but forgot !

[Mack The Knife]

I thought that you could get hold of all Birchwood Casey products ?

Yes but they need to be imported. Have just had a look and at present there is a bottle each of wax, sealer & filler and stock sheen & conditioner. I will definitely be using the last two.

There is half a large bottle of Tru Oil (8 oz.) left but the oil seems to have gone bad. It has started taking far too long to dry between coats and I realised this when using it for the IFG tutorial. Nothing wrong with the Liberon product. Try it if you haven't. Damn side cheaper as well.

The best finish is to use their `Gun Stock Filler and Sealer`, then stain....

Are you sure it's not the other way around? I stain first because I don't see how the stain is going to seep in once the grains are sealed.

The Birchwood Casey Walnut Stain IS water based by the way........or water soluble to be technically correct.

Yes, I'm aware of that....

"I shifted to water based stains some years back and so far have been using Birchwood Casey's walnut stain and Liberon's walnut stain."

I thought that you were limited to oil based stains which are terrible.

Well remembered and the fault is mine for saying that we only get spirit based stains in India.

Have you access to spray-on oven cleaner - the stuff that reckons that it doesn`t produce fumes ? ( `Fume` less is more accurate. ) ( `Easy Off` is good. ) If you have a really mucky stock, one with years of acquired grease/oil and muck - and dark `bruises` - ( like ex-military rifles often are ) you can spray the stock with the oven cleaner, leave for no more than five minutes and then thoroughly scrub with a stiff brush or cleaning pad. Rinse thoroughly under a very hot tap.......or use several buckets of hot water. Hang up to dry OUT of the sun and away from heat sources for a good 48 hours until really dry. The grain will be SO open !
I have an idea that I promised to tell you about that `trick` before..........but forgot !

Thanks Grumps. Will try this in future if I pick up an old and tatty airgun. I am very hesitant to experiment with something as drastic on someone elses stock.

Mack The Knife

[Mark]

Sorry I'm late to the party here, Grumpy has covered all the bases I see.

About the only thing I'd like to add is the only time I go across (well maybe not the only time but close) grain is after the main sanding has been done on the stock, which I usually do with 100 or 120 grit paper, then I follow up with progressively finer grits. What I usually do is double the number, so 120 grit will be followed by 220 and then 400. Anything after 120, all you are using it for is to remove the scratches left by the previous sandpaper. If you sand at 90 degrees to the pervios direction you'll make the scratches show up if they are still there. It is a good way of checking on your progress. Then go back to sanding with the grain again.

Now for filling the grain, one method is to use sandpaper and a varnish and use circular strokes to make a slurry with the dust and varnish but the last several guns I've done I'm getting partial to using polyurethane and then bringing it down with steel wool. (checking on something here)

[Mack The Knife]

Mark, thanks for the tips. I have been meaning to try that grain filling method you mentioned but still haven't got round to it.

Grumpy, is this the Easy Off you had in mind?



According to the label on the reverse it is meant for removing grease and oil stains.

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

No - same company probably but it`s the oven cleaner that`s required. `Bang` type general cleaners tend to have a lot of peroxide in them which isn`t great on wood. It won`t lift the marks but it would probably bleach them ! Smells like cat pee as well - yeugh !

[Mack The Knife]

Okay. Will look around some more.

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

[penpusher]

In India it is not possible to just run down to the store and get water based stains or bottles of tru oil.So we are limited to pigment(in powder form) meant be used for spirit polishes or oil based stains.

I have found that you can extract some stain from walnut scraps/shavings/ dust by boiling it in water in an iron pot.Reduce the mixture till its is a very thick slurry and you get a small amount of stain good for one stock.And it is water based.

Trying a mixture of boiled linseed oil(artist grade) with Cyanoacrylate(your good old Elfy) added to it.Does dry pretty fast when compared to just plain linseed oil.Sanded the stock with 150 then 320 and then 600 grade sandpaper.Have applied 2 coats of the linseed Cyanoacrylate mixture in the last 2 days and then rubbed it down with 1200 grade sandpaper(with some oil on it) in a circular motion and then buffed it using paper napkins.Has taken on a dull sheen so far.Can still see some open grains(used a white commercial wood filler before staining and oiling) when I hold it at an angle.The stock has become buttery smooth .As per the info on the net,seems like I am doomed to do this every day for a week,every week for a month,every month for a year and then every year for the rest of my life Like the result that I am getting so far though

BTW is Tru oil just a varnish.Some sources on the net do seem to imply this.

penpusher

[shutzen]

[quote="penpusher";p="25604"]In India it is not possible to just run down to the store and get water based stains or bottles of tru oil.So we are limited to pigment(in powder form) meant be used for spirit polishes or oil based stains.

I have found that you can extract some stain from walnut scraps/shavings/ dust by boiling it in water in an iron pot.Reduce the mixture till its is a very thick slurry and you get a small amount of stain good for one stock.And it is water based. [quote]


HI! no need to do any jugad when you can have one of the leading italian brands stain available . We have a distributor for the circa (italy) water based pu, melamine , acrylic and polyester finishing systems here. The dude has something like nearly a 100 diffrent types of stain in stock - usable by diluting with water or thinner. Has loads of superfine sandpaper and special rubbing and polishing compunds too. If u want I can send u his phone number and u can try the stains they are cheap at abt Rs. 150-200 per small bottle. The stains in the hands of a good painter can really transform and enhance the look of wood on which it is applied

[Grumpy]

I don`t know what `jugad` means but penpushers ingenuity is admirable - who`d have thought of mixing linseed oil and cyanoacrylate ? ( Apart from penpusher of course................................. )
The trouble with linseed oil is that it darkens over time.......which will mess-up the colour you`ve spent so long trying to achieve.
BTW, instead of messing about boiling-up scraps of Walnut, boil up WalNUTS instead. Add some shells as well. You`ll get much more stain, much more quickly.........although if you reduce it enough it will definitely be oil based.

[shutzen]

Grumpy";p="25630"]I don`t know what `jugad` means

HI! Grumpy jugad is a Indian phrase for a makeshift /makedo arrangement which gets the work done in the heat of the moment
Btw here is a link to the Sirca stainer catalouge for the stock refinishers:

http://www.sirca.it/prod/tintorama.pdf

One of the worlds leading wood coating systems manufacturers. In case anyone has a problem procuring this stuff in ur city I can ask the loacal suppliers here to courier the stuff to u . chk it out;)