Laser sights - do they help in a close quarter emergency

[joydeepm]

I have never fired handguns but intend getting one soon for personal protection and concealed carry . I was wondering if getting a laser sight fitted would somewhat compensate for lack of practice , given the fact that ammo availability is a constraint .
Would the Gurus care to comment ? I have already asked a senior Guru via PM but views from a few others would be welcome .

The next point is , are they available in india or have to be imported ?

What is the opinion on whether they are more useful on a pistol or a revolver ?

[nagarifle]

hi
you have posted this in the sale section which is not the right place for it and will not get much response.

why not post it in Ammunition, accessories section.

then i will answer your questions

[goodboy_mentor]

There is no substitute to practice, as the saying goes "practice makes a man perfect". Moreover it will give you the confidence about handling your weapon(in other words you will be able to know and "speak" with your gun). Even with a laser sight, one does require practice to place the laser sight on target, in shortest possible time and place the bullet in target.

If ammunition is a constraint, apply for a higher quota for practice.

Main disadvantage with laser sights is that, they do reveal your position to your opponent/opponents in darkness, much before the bullet leaves the barrel of your gun.

[xl_target]

Here is a web page that will answer a lot of questions about the use of lasers on firearms:
http://www.corneredcat.com/Gear/lasergood.aspx

[nagarifle]

Laser sights has its place and manly used for placeing a round where it points, however there are two school of thoughts on this and they both have good points.

if you totaly relay on laser what happens if its damaged or cell run dry?
would it interfear in defence role ie if you have a laser mounted on pistol or revolver would it get snged on clothing etc? these points needs to be tougth out.

some pistol can have laser implanted in the arms it self some are mounted on the trigger guard or on top.

i think they have a place but not as first and foremost aiming device. using sights the old fashion way is still the best way to go.

most laser sights are used by police etc but not totally relayed on by them they still have to pass marksmanship test with out the laser.

laser sights do builds up false confidence and that can be deadly. therefor laser sights should be an aid to better shooting but not main aid in placing shots.

in self defense situation it does not make a difference if the attackers see the beam or the point. as it going to be at close quarters, which in it self can be pointless for use of laser anyway.

a good laser would cost 1/2 of what the pistol would cost. can it be had in India?
not seen or heard of any but there is company in Delhi who supply laser boxes to security services. when i say box i mean its a box and worthless piece of electronic junk.

[xl_target]

As nagarifle says, it would be folly to rely on a laser alone. One must become used to practicing with the iron sights on the handgun.

One good use for a laser is in a situation like this:
Most home invasions occur at night. Generally, you will have your handgun and a flashlight. The flashlight may be hand held or mounted on the accessory rail of the gun. Ok so now you have encountered the bad guy and you have him in the beam of your flashlight. However, though partially blinded, he still lunges at you with his weapon. You try to bring your handgun to bear on him but suddenly realize that you cannot see your front sight. Lets get one thing straight, if you have no idea where your front sight is, even at the close range of seven yards there is a good chance that you will miss even a man sized target. It’s only in the movies that you can point your weapon in the general direction of the target and get a bullseye with every shot. For the rest of us, we must be able to fire aimed shots and that means that we must at least be able to see the front sight. A laser would be ideal in conditions like this. Once sighted in, all you have to do is put the dot where you want it and you should also be able to place a bullet in the same place. Sounds easy, right?

Well... before you can use the laser on your handgun effectively, it must be sighted in. Just clipping a laser to the rail on your handgun isn’t enough. Here is the issue , the path your laser beam follows is straight. The path your bullet follows is parabolic. The laser should be sighted in so the paths of the beam and the bullet converge at a certain distance. So for example, lets say you sight your laser in at seven yards and your bullet hits the dot at distance, when you sight in on an object further away, your bullet might not hit the target where the dot is located. You will have to practice at different distances to see where the bullet hits in relation to the beam and will have to take that into account when firing. It might be close or it might not, depending on how your laser was aligned with the bore. Either way its going to take some range time to get used to the way your gun shoots.

[nagarifle]

but then again if at close quarters who needs lasers if one is able to point shoot? drew back with point shoot is that while using the index finger to point and middle finer to squeeze the trigger one may get the finger to close to the slide of pistol and be missing a few inches of skin (depending upon type of pistol )

[xl_target]

To point shoot effectively, one would need a certain amount of practice.

If you are going to pull the trigger with the middle finger, you'd better be able to practice a whole lot more or you're going to be torquing the gun all over. With the very restricted amount of ammo available to most Indian shooters (per year), I think that is a goal that is going to be hard to achieve. Either using your sights or point shooting is not going to be effective till you have some practice. You still have to get some semblance of trigger control down and that comes from actually pulling the trigger. While dry firing can help, it is no substitute for range time. Even with a laser, at close range, if you're jerking the gun around as you fire, you'll pull the laser off target.

Add stress related adrenaline to the equation, and it gets even harder. If you are shooting in your own home, where will the bullets go if you miss? Where are the other bedrooms located? Will a hurried shot miss and injure your own family members? Using a firearm for self defense bring up a lot of concerns that one should be aware of.

Info on Point shooting:
http://www.pointshooting.com/iwin.htm
[youtube][/youtube]

An alternate viewpoint:
[youtube][/youtube]

More point shooting: demo
[youtube][/youtube]

[hvj1]

Joydeepm
I wish to share some of my experiences with the laser sights. I went to the market and bought a straight forward 'laser pointer' the one used for pointing at the screen during a presentation. It cost me Rs 250/-, I started with taping the pointer to the underside of my .22 barrel. This was a fairly rough arrangement, but I just wanted to see the results. Witha few adjustments I managesd to get the 'point of impact' perfectly with the 'point of aim' or rather precisely on the laser dot. Now there is one small hitch, the pointer has a small button, which needs to be depressed. So , I used to depress the button, then go about shooting. Later, with the help of an electronics fellow, I connected the depress button directly onto the trigger, via a thin small cable.
So when my triger finger depressed the trigger , it also switched on the pointer. Believe me, its quite easy, only takes a lot of patience and help of an electronic/electrical expert.
Next I developed some clamps, eliminated the tapes and attached it to my rifle barrel. Eventually the novelty of the whole thing evaporated and I dumped the laser pointer God Knows where. If you are interested in experimenting you could clamp the pointer on an air rifle barrel and have some fun.
If you do manage to pursue the above experiment and commence shooting with it, you will have some very interesting real time experience, which will help you arrive at your own conclusions regarding self defence , close range , etc..
Regards

[joydeepm]

To all who posted here

thanks guys .
you really cleared up a lot of doubts and issues .
As nagarifle commented , this is on the wrong thread .
How do I move it to the right one ?
Apologies for the goof up .

best regards

[timmy]

They are far easier on multiple targets in the dark. Transitioning from one target to another to another is very simple and very fluid. There's no added time to settle down on each target -- just bang and go.

On moving targets, especially on moving targets in the dark, they are faster and easier than any other system. Singles or multiples, if the target is moving, it's just flat out easier with a laser. Again, no comparison is possible. Very few people have had opportunity to shoot movers in the dark, but take my word on this one: if you want to hit something that is moving, and if lighting conditions are less than optimal, the laser is absolutely the way to go.

A story from a local gun shop: The homeowner heard some noise in the house and got up to investigate, taking his laser-equipped handgun with him. He saw something ominous and, directing the laser dot of his handgun at the human shape, cut loose with several rounds.

After the commotion died down and the lights were turned on, his wife was less than amused to find several holes in the fur coat she had hung up on a coat rack.

Personally, I don't understand how any sight can compensate for lack of practice firing the weapon. I will agree that a certain kind of sight can improve shooting: with my older eyes, an aperture sight helps me to shoot better than normal iron sights and I do even better with an optical sight, be it red dot or scope. But the use of an improved sight still does not compensate for proper hold, or technique, or just plain being used to firing the weapon.

Secondly, as the little story illustrates, using a laser sight can never be a substitute for one of the most basic and important gun safety practices: that of knowing your target. When thinking of discharging my weapon inside my home, I can think of nothing more important than being sure of my target and being sure that my shooting isn't going to endanger a loved one. If this rule is to be disregarded, what's the difference between my promiscuous shooting and letting the goon do whatever? The point is protecting my loved ones and myself, and if my shooting harms innocent people, then something is dreadfully wrong with the whole idea.

The laser is only going to shine a small dot on a surface. If the owner of that surface is not known, there's a potential for a big problem. If what is behind that surface is a thin wall between the weapon and a sleeping loved one, there is a big problem. Whatever laser sights can do in the dark, they are intended to aim the weapon, not illuminate the target for identification.

[joydeepm]

Thanks again to you guys for the detailed clarification . I gained a lot of knowledge on shooting from here .

I would like to rephrase my question once more . Supposing I know the target , I know it is not someone I care for , that he/she presents clear and present danger to me and/or my loved ones and this happens outdoors or indoors ( i gotta make sure there are no thin walls behind or that the bullet probably wont bounce off and hit someone else ) and supposing I have made up my mind to shoot , THEN , does a laser sight improve chances of hitting the target by even 25% for a person who rarely has had the chance to practice and who is , quite possibly suffering an adrenalin rush ( I guess upto 10-15 metres the parabolic deviation of the projectile from the intended target shall be minimal ) . i am of course not talking about mid noon sunlight situations but overcase , shadowy or even dark surroundings .
I do not expect the self righteous authority to really consider allocating more than 100 pops to me per year . I shall possibly hit the range every 3 months or so with 20 rounds . I recognise the fact that this kind of practice does not make an expert marksman . will the laser improve my chances at all when the chips are down ? i realise breathing control , stance , hold , trigger pull and follow thru are all important.

Could any moderator also tell me how to move this thread under the accessories thread ?

[xl_target]

After the commotion died down and the lights were turned on, his wife was less than amused to find several holes in the fur coat she had hung up on a coat rack.

Dang it Timmy, I had just taken a drink of my Coke when I read this. Now, its all over my monitor. I think you owe me one screen cleaning

Supposing I know the target , I know it is not someone I care for , that he/she presents clear and present danger to me and/or my loved ones and this happens outdoors or indoors ( i gotta make sure there are no thin walls behind or that the bullet probably wont bounce off and hit someone else ) and supposing I have made up my mind to shoot , THEN , does a laser sight improve chances of hitting the target by even 25% for a person who rarely has had the chance to practice and who is , quite possibly suffering an adrenalin rush ( I guess upto 10-15 metres the parabolic deviation of the projectile from the intended target shall be minimal ) . i am of course not talking about mid noon sunlight situations but overcase , shadowy or even dark surroundings .

Under the specific conditions that you have enumerated, I would say that your chances of hitting your intended target are quite possible increased with a laser.

I do not at present have a laser mounted on my carry pistol and probably won't for a while as they don't make a grip laser (Crimson Trace) or a return-spring guide rod laser (Lasermax) for any of my guns. However, I have used a laser equipped handgun many times, even renting them occasionally. I found that on every instance that I used them, they helped me shoot smaller groups. They also helped me see how my point of aim was wandering all over the target and forced me to fix the problem. I have never been in a shootout or had to draw my gun in a self defense situation so I don't know how a laser would perform for me in that situation. I can only surmise that it should help.

[timmy]

joydeepm:

I've thought about your question all day today, and here's my opinion - just an opinion:

The problem here is that you only get half a box of ammo a year -- not nearly enough to practice and become proficient with your weapon. So, the tack you are taking is to increase the efficiency of your shooting by adding a more effective sighting system.

The real problem is that you need to gain proficiency with the weapon, to handle, shoot, and practice, practice, practice with it, so that what you do with it when the chips are down -- when what you might do is unknown. You want to reduce that unknown when you are taken by surprise and experiencing a big dose of adrenaline.

You're noting that you will be close -- if you are indoors, I would say you'd more than likely be looking at distances much less than even 10 meters, but you could be outside as well.

Personally, and I could understand if many were to disagree -- in your shoes, having to solve a problem for which the best solution is outlawed and unavailable, I would take the money you might spend on a nice laser sight and get an air pistol, instead. Maybe something like the old Webley Tempest, that is short. Maybe you might get one of the CO₂ revolver replicas. Then, set up a trap inside your home or some other semi-private place and shoot. Granted, this won't give you experience in dealing with recoil and other similar issues associated with a full-power firearm, but it will get you used to handling a handgun and get you used to putting a projectile where you are pointing it. It's also relatively cheap.

Now, I agree, this isn't ideal, but the way I would approach the issue is by trying to familiarize myself with handling a weapon and gaining some confidence that I can deliver a projectile to a point of impact. I could practice hold, technique, motor skills and hand-eye coordination. For the money, I think that this would give you a better efficiency to cost improvement for what you want to do that you'll get with a laser sight. After all, the problem isn't going to be seeing the target (you've already postulated that you can recognize it) and distance isn't going to be a tremendous issue (at least, it wouldn't be indoors and for a lot of outdoor situations). The problem is more related to handling the weapon, becoming familiar with it, and being able to put some lead where you want it to go.

It's my opinion, and just an opinion, that the air pistol would get you further down that road than laser sights would -- that would be the way I'd play the bad hand you are dealt here.

xl: whoops! Sorry! If and when I get to the land of 10,000 lakes, I will have to pay the bill!

[joydeepm]

Dear timmy ,

I have started doing excactly what you have told me . The weapon is break barrel spring action 0.22 , not CO2 powered.

I find a lot of sense in what you have said . I shall however , also go for the laser . The trick is to find out if crimson trace makes one for the IOF revolver / pistol as I am not about to buy a 30 year old imported weapon for 25 times the price you pay for a new weapon abroad .

thanks mate