Indians For Guns

A new friend was kind enough to point me to the following Blog posting:

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New 5.56×30mm Cartridge From India
Filed under: New Product, News — Tags: 5.56, Colt, Fireball, India, Remington — Editor @ 7 am August 31, 2009

The Indian Army has introduced a new Modern Sub-Machinegun Carbine (MSMC) that shoots an interesting new round, a shortened version of the 5.56×45 (.223 Remington). According to The Firearm Blog, “The [MSMC] chambers a round developed in India called the 5.56×30mm. This round is sometimes referred to as the ‘5.56×30mm INSAS’ after the first gun to chambered the round, the INSAS Carbine.”

This is an interesting cartridge, reminiscent of the 5.56×30 MARS cartridge originally developed by COLT for its Mini Assault Rifle System (MARS) project (see below). The MARS gun never went into full production, and the 5.56×30 cartridge remained an orphan. But it was an interesting cartridge. As designed, using just 16.8 grains of commercial ball powder, Colt’s 5.56×30 cartridge could launch a 55gr FMJ bullet at 2600 fps.
We are intrigued by the new Indian 5.56×30mm cartridge because it would seem very well-suited for varminting, either in .22-caliber form, or necked down to .20 caliber or even .17 caliber. We already have a similar cartridge, of course, the 221 Fireball, but right now there is only one manufacturer of 17 and 221 Fireball brass, namely Remington.
If the Indian 5.56×30mm cartridge is produced in large quantities, perhaps we could see budget-priced 5.56×30mm brass exported for sale in the American market. That would be a boon for high-volume varminters. Also, if the Indian 5.56×30mm is standardized internationally, perhaps one of the European brass manufacturers (Lapua, Norma, RUAG, Wolf?) would consider producing it as an alternative to the 221 Fireball. We can only wish that a 20-cal or 17-cal version of the Indian 5.56×30mm cartridge might be produced some day as inexpensive factory ammo. Many varminters are now looking at centerfire options to the 17 HMR cartridge, as 17 HMR ammo prices continue to climb. A 50-round box of 17 HMR can now cost $14.00 or more.

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Besides the bloggers misplaced optimism on acquiring cheap Indian brass - as a matter of (idiotic) state policy India does not usually export arms or ammo - what do you think about this "new" cartridge?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

India exported 9mm to UK which got dumped into the see by brit army as being usless.

have to take a lot closer look at what the yanks been doing with. like you said 'interesting''

As a replacement for the current 9mm Sterling carbine, this cartridge does have merit. However, I wonder about the following:

1. Logistics problems due to adding one more cartridge to the current mix
2. Possible safety issues due to troops mistakenly loading this ammo into rifles chambered for the 5.56x45
3. Reliability issues with the current INSAS line of rifles

Cheers!
Abhijeet

i would agree with you that number of differing rounds would crate havoc in resupplying etc. on this point looking back at the UK defense systems, they had 7.62 and 9mm smg and pistols in use. Now they have only 5.56 rifle and 9mm pistol in use. every one is equipped with the rifle thus ammo is the same all round. one just has to say out of ammo and supply is on its way. However if one has more then one type of ammo then confuse sen is bound to happen.

in the link given its says:
'The MSMC was originally part of the Indian Small Arms System (INSAS) programme, initiated in 1982 to provide an indigenous small arms weapons system for the Indian armed forces. A rifle, a light machine gun (LMG) and a carbine were eventually designed as part of the INSAS family, but even as the INSAS rifle and LMG were inducted for operational use, the carbine failed to pass muster.

INSAS failed to muster!

and it also says:

'The INSAS rifle and LMG was severely tested during the Kargil War and found wanting in reliability.'

Now the purpose of the new round is that it is able to penetrate soft amour at 200m

quote 'According to ARDE director Anil M Datar, the organization is in the process of proving 99.7 per cent reliability for the MSMC, which is effective to a maximum range of 200 meters. '

if their research is based on the Kargil war, then where does the 200 m comes from?

Normally world Armies have gone for 300 m at effective killing range on their rifles.

so where did the ARDE come up with 200m effective range? has the effective battle range being reduced?

that would mean that the Jewans would only be grantee a kill 200m or under. what if the enemy is at 250?

that can be summed up in a nut shell ' give a coffin or give me a AK and let the other side proved the coffins'

I should think the idea is simply piggy backing that of the P90 and H&K MP7... basically a PDW.
I wonder if there is any real institutionalized doctrine/requirement or just a whimsical result of a national 'we can do it too' thing.

...besides soldiers aren't exactly going to be spending their time shooting varmints.

As far as I know three IOF guns are capable of firing the 5.56x30 - The MINSAS, MSMC and the Zittara(optional).

The MINSAS is an uninspired shortened INSAS with an unmistakable AK flavor. This shouldn't be confused with the INSAS Carbine which is a bobbed INSAS much like the AK74-AKS-74U relationship.

As for the MSMC, inspite of it's off track appearance, if one cares to look closely, its again just a very pimped up INSAS....receiver and all! I think it's been largely inspired by the H&K MP7

I think its just going to compound the problems for the quartermasters.

...and speaking of exports particularly to the US...why bother even supplying live cartridges...simply export tons of 5.56x30 casings...since cheap varmint brass seems to be the main point of interest in US circles... that will save a lot of manufacturing cost and time which matches OFBs work ethics... it'll probably also save us a lot of dud related embarrassment... ... all this can be done without inflicting it on or troops.

Normally world Armies have gone for 300 m at effective killing range on their rifles. so where did the ARDE come up with 200m effective range? has the effective battle range being reduced? That would mean that the Jewans would only be grantee a kill 200m or under. what if the enemy is at 250?

Half the time even the technocrats want to live the lives of bureaucrats...babu-itis is very infectious.

Reminds of a government notice on our local rag concerning precautions for Swine flu. One of the more ridiculous points says... "keep 3ft distance from infected person"... the natural assumption would be at 3.001ft you are absolutely safe....

so they shortened the 5,56 by 15 mil and made a new platform for it...concur about the logistics. so who's going to be issued this bullpup? any load data?
chuck the ww2 sten relic of SMC or give it to the cops totally,
just a waste of tax payers money. emperor's new clothes etc. They could be better off making a slightly beefed up clone of the 22 Brno mod 2 in 204 or 17 hmr for export use.The yank varminters will lap it up-provided the barrels are not inserts.
There's no moral high ground here.The same politicians( or their cousins) who spent 2k USD per coffin in the kargil ops, suddenly want to declare we dont export munitions? what about the IAF bases outside the country? or supply of the' wotta laff' INSAS to nepal?
How about replacing the standard fauji water bottles with a collapsible type, or some such useful idea? the DRDO jokers gotta do things to keep their jobs.build a solution, then search for a problem...

eh its another white elephant job or as they say its a mirage thinge.

if this goes ahead i would not want to join the forces, as i do not believe in suicide. am to young to die just yet.

its a case of pulling the wool over the eyes. what i do not understand is that how can the tekis justify the dead(talking in times to come) of the solders by such a pitiful ammo.

Yup, instead of reinventing the wheel, how does an AK clone in ORIGINAL 5,56x45 sound? with a licenced version of the SAW/Minimi again in 5,56mm
or , if it aint broke, dont fix it.The AK/7.62x39mm combo has proven its worth time and again...
No one needs to be left out.All carry the same
The pistol, which is any way not the primary armament should be issued as a secondary, not to officers alone, soldiers are used to humping heavy loads over some terrible terrain...Good money now being wasted can be used to modernise stuff like load bearing equipment. Seen the el cheapo retaining catches ona Ak mag carrier used by our boys? bright & shiny.What ever happened to sight, shine, shadow, sound etc ?

just short sighted and lack of knowledge, simple why not ask the users what they would like? any one worth their salt would like to take down one target at 300m + the days of ' wait till you see the white of their eyes' are long gone.

if i saw the whites of opponents eye(unless i am looking out of a scope) i would do a mile in minute routine and live to fight again.

i just got an idea why not put the researchers under enemy fire for few hours and let them decide which cal. they would prefer?

eljefe wrote:Yup, instead of reinventing the wheel, how does an AK clone in ORIGINAL 5,56x45 sound? with a licenced version of the SAW/Minimi again in 5,56mm
or , if it aint broke, dont fix it.The AK/7.62x39mm combo has proven its worth time and again...
No one needs to be left out.All carry the same
The pistol, which is any way not the primary armament should be issued as a secondary, not to officers alone, soldiers are used to humping heavy loads over some terrible terrain...Good money now being wasted can be used to modernise stuff like load bearing equipment. Seen the el cheapo retaining catches ona Ak mag carrier used by our boys? bright & shiny.What ever happened to sight, shine, shadow, sound etc ?

...ya... in fact if its to be an AK based design...take up license manufacture of the Sako RK95 in 5.56 or perhaps even leave it in 7.62 Sov. I think there is no finer and robust AK derivative than the RK95.

If 5.56mm IOF is already (supposedly)peddling the NEGEV on behalf of Israel...so that should solve our SAW question.

as regards other equipment... the lesser said the better...

-- Fri Sep 04, 2009 20:43 --

nagarifle wrote: i just got an idea why not put the researchers under enemy fire for few hours and let them decide which cal. they would prefer?

Maybe that will tell them something about why the old M14s in storage are being dusted off and revived as Mark14 Mod 0's and 1's....

Lawd help us all !

Ashok

The IOFB spends a huge sum of money developing the 5.56mm carbine to complete the INSAS(rifle,carbine and light machine gun).

The carbine fails.The army rejects it.One of the reasons given was excesive muzzle blast.I am not sure if there were reliability issues involved as well(highly possible).Since the carbine can't handle the full sized 5.56 cartridge,the IOFB chaps come up with this to justify the money they have blown up on a dud.

Very logical,waste more of our money on a product that was a complete waste of our money in the first place.

As far as cheap brass goes,if I remember,the raw material wastage initially in drawing 5.56 cases was something like 75%

If what some one told me is true,there is a very high rate of rejection of rifles at the time of QC.Considering what gets through,you can well imagine the state of what is rejected.Off course no one is accountable for the waste that this results in.

Why does the govt. import firearms to protect our netas.Why don't we see their bodyguards armed with IOFB's 'world class' products.Why not have a trial after calling an international tender in which the IOFB competes with other firearm manufacturers to arm the Indian armed forces.Then we can see how 'world class their products really are.

Their former boss is on trial for corruption.I am sure more heads will roll at IOFB.Rather they should.Would that change any thing.I doubt it.

I can't comment so much on the politics, understandably, but I could see this move based on the Mumbai/9-11 events. It was pretty well known in some circles that 7.62x25 Tok was good at piercing some kinds of soft body armor. Packing that capability into a small, lightweight weapon would have advantages for special police and counter terrorism forces. For instance, I have long been meaning to start loading some sabot rounds for my CZ 52 in 7.62x25 -- that is why I got the handgun. Loads I have seen using the sabot supposedly get 1700 fps from a 50 gr .223 bullet. That is some penetrating power out of a very compact case. This round would be much more powerful, yet the small case is still suited to short barreled, compact weapons.

The trouble I see with weapons for security forces based on the Kalashnikov system is that the action is very large and heavy. A shorter cartridge makes for a shorter action and smaller magazines. Yet in a short barrel, the smaller case capacity will give up little in velocity, compared to the parent round. However, I expect that a shorter round might also be easier for the present manufacturing capabilities to accommodate.

As far as export, agreed, if it doesn't go "Bang" when the trigger is pulled, nobody will be interested. Also, if the round is designed to take Berdan primers, this could also inhibit acceptance in places like the USA where hand loaders would want the brass. Of course, this did not ultimately stop the acceptance of 7.62x39 in the USA and the "children" of this round -- the flood of military surplus ammo and the flood of exported surplus-like ammo from nations looking to get hard currency made the 7.62x39 quite popular here.

I could see this becoming an interesting round to reloaders. The politics, I will leave alone!

-- Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:58 --

Just a note, I found the patent for the Colt MARS here:

Colt Mars Patent

-- Fri Sep 04, 2009 13:05 --

Sorry -- as another note, I found this:

http://www.personaldefenceweapons.com// ... v_pdws.htm

I think the author has a point that, if Colt is only going to use the same M16 action for the shorter cartridge, it would be better just to provide reduced power rounds for the weapon, and retain the ability to use full power ammo if that's all that's available. The chief advantage I can see to the smaller round is a more compact weapon, such as other manufacturers are working on. I don't see any advantage in offering a rehashed version of a 45 year old design. Surely something better can be designed!

The direct bolt impingement that the Stoner system uses does make for a smaller, lighter weapon, but I can't say that I'm very enamored with its reliability.

I vote for having a look at the cartridge, but the M16 action can sleep with the fishes as far as a new weapon is concern, IMO.

Actually the IOF does export tons of ammo. Right now its .303 and .308 ammo that is available in the US civil market. I do believe it has the reputation of junk.
So would the 5.56x30 be exported... ultimately yes in all probability.

However the question remains why bother with a caliber that no one else uses, and will end up complicating your supply lines. PDW weapon? Why not just license manufacture the MP-5?

I personally do not see the point of this caliber. For Varmint shooting, shooters are already spoilt for choice. With everything ranging from 17 HMR through to .50 BMG dependent on how deep your pockets are, and what your aspirations are.

Then again given the anemic performance of the 5.56x45 on the battlefield, I dont think the 30 version will achieve anything spectacular.

once more it the case of throwing good money after the bad.