Indians For Guns

Experienced members please throw some light onto the subject of Reflex Sights .What purpose do they specifically serve?How are they used in combination with a magnifier or a night vision scope..

http://www.sightmark.com/products/refle ... qd-sm14002

Jatrindra: I have a couple; they mount on a Weaver/Picatinny base. Rather than focusing your eye on the front iron sight, seeing the rear sight a bit fuzzy, and the target a blur (speaking as an old person with tired eyes), you can see the target clearly with a red dot (or whatever) over it. There is no magnification. The ring will tend to put your center of vision on the dot. It is easier to shoot with both eyes open with them, I think (although I did not find it hard to learn to do this years ago).

The ones I have are somewhat bulky and fragile. I have not used them much; and put them on special mounts that replaced the rear sights on my SKS and AK. For shooting on the range and fooling around, they were great, but for hunting and such, I felt they were a bit vulnerable. Other kinds and brands may be different.

The main use seems to be on pistols. They work really well, I think. There is no magnification, which is fine for short ranges.

For my SKS, I have been thinking about using a 1.5x scope or something, instead, because these reflex sights are bulkier than a scope and, I think, more likely to get hung up on something.

Thanks a lot Timmy !! That makes it a lot clearer ..May be the reflex sights have improved and reduced in size as I have seen couple forums where people used them on ARs ...for example the one I have provided with the topic..

jatindra Singh Deo wrote:Experienced members please throw some light onto the subject of Reflex Sights .What purpose do they specifically serve?How are they used in combination with a magnifier or a night vision scope..
http://www.sightmark.com/products/refle ... qd-sm14002

What is the purpose of a gun sight?
It is used to align the gun with the target.
It doesn't matter how you do it. As long as the gun is aligned with the target, you are good.

Reflex sights were first (widespread) used in WW2 as gun sights. Fighter aircraft used them and so did the gunners on bombers, among others.

The problem with any kind of lighted optical sight is that you need a power source. On a vehicle of some kind it is possible to provide that power relatively easily but even dry cells don't last very long when powering a flashlight bulb. What really made them possible for portable use was the invention of the LED. The improvements of the LED and surface mount technology as well as advancements in battery technology ( in the 1990's) made for really compact reflex (or red dot sights) with long life. The first red dot sights from Aimpoint in the 1970's were a little bulky and needed their batteries changed often. Today we have red dot sights that can go for thousands of hours on little button cells.

I recently purchased a Vortex Sparq red dot sight that claims 3400 hours in the minimum brightness mode and 4600 in the night vision mode! This is on a single button battery. As I have grown older, My close focus has naturally deteriorated and I have problems clearly seeing the rear sight of a rifle. A scope works fine but they are relatively bulky and with the higher magnification units, they have a hard time being used for close range work as the field of view is so narrow. So for my plinking .22 LR rifle, I chose a red dot. Newer models are tiny and add no weight or bulk to the rifle or pistol. They are also very tough and can take a beating and still continue to work as there are no moving parts or bulb filament to break.


The SPARQ weighs a mere 5 ounces, including the metal mount.

As far as night vision goes, some sights just reduce the brightness of the LED to a very low level and other actually use an infra red dot.

How does it work?
The front lens is usually coated with a semi reflective material. You can see through it just fine but when the LED is turned on, it reflects off the coating and you see a small lighted dot in your field of view.
You look through it with your dominant eye and see the red dot. Once you have acquired the red dot, you can open both eyes and as long as you maintain your cheek weld, you then see the red dot seemingly floating in space in front of you. This give you close to your full peripheral vision and a very wide field of view. All you have to do is put the red dot on the target and pull the trigger. If you have taken the time to sight it in, you will be able to hit the target every time. This is at 1X or no magnification. If you increase your magnification, your field of view will narrow like a scope. Even 2X will produce a significant narrowing of the field of view as you will tend to have one eye closed. Eye relief is not an issue so they can be placed anywhere in you line of sight. Target acquisition is very, very fast as you basically just have to look at your target and you are on them (because the red dot is your plane of vision).


Diagram of three types of reflector sights. The top uses a collimating lens (CL) and a beam splitter (B) to create a virtual image at infinity (V) of a reticle (R). The bottom two use half silvered curved mirrors (CM) as the collimating optics.
image from here

So why do you want magnification?
The red dot's are usually 2 to 4 m.o.a dots. There are 1 m.o.a dots available but you can lose the speed of acquiring the target as they are small and sometimes hard to acquire quickly. The problem with a 2 m.o.a and greater dot is that it will cover your target at longer distances, if the target is small. A 4 m.o.a. dot will cover four inches at 100 yards. So you lose precision at longer distances. For a soldier taking part in a close quarters battle, like urban house clearing, a 2 to 4 m.o.a dot is great as it only covers a small portion of the enemy's torso or head (at close range). For a gamer, it wont cover the whole steel plate that he is shooting at so making a hit is easy. For a hunter at moderate ranges, it will not completely cover a deer sized animal's vitals at 100/200 yards. For a target shooter it is a problem as the whole bullseye can be covered. A one inch bull will be completely covered at 50 yards by a 2 m.o.a red dot. Using magnification will allow the shooter to be more precise at longer distances. While the dot size wont change, you will be able to get a better look at the target and place the dot more precisely. It also slows you down as it acts like a scope.

As Tim mentions; you focus on the target with the projected dot clearly visible. You don't have to worry about lining up the front sight, the back sight and the target. Red dots, consequently, allow very fast target acquisition at close range. AR15 shooters will sometimes use flip up magnifiers behind the red dot sight. At close range they are flipped out of the way and at long range they are flipped back into the line of sight. The problem is that they can be heavy and can affect the balance of the weapon when the weapon may have cover a large arc of fire (at close quarters).

Generally, the cheaper the red dot, the worse its battery consumption and the worse its durability. Some really cheap red dots my also have optical clarity issues and visual distortion. They might also have significant parallax issues at close range which can negate their advantages.

For a more technical discussion on reflex sights, see HERE

Tim,
Some of today's micro red dot sights are very small and light and will take the pounding of an SKS with no issue. Many companies make them: Bushnell, Aimpoint, etc. Here is a video reviewing the Sparq.

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One thing I forgot to mention. Some sights like the EOTEC create issues for people with astigmatism. While many people swear by the EOTEC, to me it's just a smear while some of the other ones are fine. Make sure you view the dot before you buy it. I also have a Bushnell 1 X 28 Red/green dotthat has a crystal clear reticle. I have it mounted on a 20 gauge auto shotgun and so far it has held zero just fine.

XL:

I have a pair of these ATN Ultra sights:


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/729791 ... -dot-matte

that are mounted to the SKS and AK using these Millet mounts that replace the rear sight:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/595160 ... -sks-matte

My Millet mounts didn't come with the rings. The SKS and AK mounts are similar, but not interchangeable. When I bought them over 10 years ago (the sights and the mounts) the setup for each gun was over $200. Now I see that BSA (yikes!) sells a red dot sight that looks like my ATNs. I don't know whether the BSA stuff is knock off or made by the same outfit in China, or wherever.

The thing is, the whole affair sits VERY high above the barrel and the ring part of the sight sits even higher. There's no way you could use such a setup in the field without clobbering that ring on a tree, door, or whatever. It is only really useful for the range, and even then, you put your chin on the stock, rather than your cheek! The ATN units seem ok, but they are a rube goldberg gadget with springs and what-have-you that seem very vulnerable to getting whacked out of adjustment very easily.

For my .58 cal. Cabela's muzzleloader, I used one of these old Leupold Gilmore pistol red dots:



mounted to a base that is a modified Weaver 336 Marlin item screwed to the old rear sight threaded holes. It sits low and isn't vulnerable on the muzzleloader - not much higher than the iron sights. But it is too high (though not as high as the ATNs) on the AK or the SKS because the Millet system is too high to begin with.

That's what I get for trying to use pistol stuff on long guns, I guess.

Tim, unfortunately everything today seems to be set up for the AR15 market and the Picatinny rail.

If you look at my review on the SA 20 shotgun, you can see that it came with a Picatinny rail so I was able to mount the red dot sight using Burris Signature Zee low rings. That allowed me to get the red dot in almost the same plane as the iron sights.



Bushnell red dot on my shot gun.

I suppose you would have to try and find another type of mount if you want to use the SKS or AK with any kind of optic.
Something like this for the AK, maybe:


http://www.mountsplus.com/AR-15_Accesso ... -RSR1.html

for the SKS:

http://www.wayfair.com/NcSTAR-SKS-Recei ... MgodC0UAcQ

XL:

Checking out that AK mount, it is a little, but not much lower than the Millet mount I have.

There are a lot of SKS mounts like the one shown. The way to go for any kind of real mount to either an AK or SKS is to drill the left side of the receiver. The mount in the picture is fine, once you get it set up, but the set screws will mar the receiver and as soon as you strip the gun, you will have to rezero it because you have to take the whole mount off. My AK already has a mount like that -- it is essentially a 22 grooved bar with a "tongue" that extends into the rear sight between the "ears" tightly to locate it. Take off the cover and, POOF! there goes the zero again!

With either of these two guns, I think one is really limited to either mounting a rigid mount to the side of the receiver, or else trying to work out a scout type of arrangement with a long eye relief scope. That "K-Rail" gizmo might work -- I'm sure going to look into it -- but I wonder if one can remove the gas tube without messing things up.

One of the accuracy tips I got from a guy was to be sure that the gas tube was a loose fit between the receiver and the gas block. Otherwise, as the gun heats up, the unequal expansion of the barrel and the thin gas tube will put pressure on the barrel. I can't confirm this yet, but it sure sounded reasonable.

Problems, problems, always problems.

The AK got left behind in Texas with my older son. I did bring the SKS with me though. So I will be fiddling with it in the future!

Thanks for the tips!

Hey! That's right. A scout type might work.

Here's one:



http://ultimak.com/m1-b.htm

Hmmmm! Verrry interesting, as they say!

I've been thinking of one of those Leupold EER scout scopes, too

Thanks, XL!

Any suggestions on which reflex sight for springers like HW97K ? With the scope and mount it becomes just too heavy for extended shoots.

M.

FF,
As you know, airguns, especially powerful springers have special requirements. They can totally destroy an optical sight that would be fine on many small caliber centerfire rifles.
I don't have very much experience in this field but I would caution you against some of the cheaper red dot sights put out under the Walther, SIG and BSA names. Many of them are nothing but cheap Chinese junk.
You would probably have to ask this question on an airgun related forum where you can get advice from someone who has actually used a reflex sight on a Springer.

Sorry that I couldn't be of more help here.

XL:

Didn't have time to respond last night like I wanted. First of all, mounting on the gas tube is not good, except that Ultimak stuff has the clamp on the barrel. The picture on the page you linked shows a reflex sight -- look how high it is:



This is exactly the gun I have, an NHM 91 (it has a 20" barrel):



Now, check out how high a scout scope is on this similar type of mount. Also, I use the Choate Dragunov stock, just like what's in the picture, and I want the Leupold 2.5 EER scope (rather than the pistol scope they show):



I know the dragunov is a bit different in the receiver, but I think that this sort of system would work very well with my NHM 91. It is interesting that, in the gas tube mount description, they also mention the need for a short gas tube for accuracy reasons.

Tim,
Here's a photo from Oleg's blog of an Ultimak mount with a red dot on it.
It doesn't appear to be too high.


image from here

XL, you are right: that one sits low, like my Leupold-Gilmore. That would work, too.

I wish they made a tube for the SKS, as well!

For the AK (NHM 91), I would like a little magnification. Since Kerry ran for President and said no sportsman needed an AK, it has been my desire to use the NHM 91 for hunting -- just because! The 2.5x scope would be just about right for a cartridge like 7.62x39, which I figure I could handload to almost .30-30 power (150 gr bullets).

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