Indians For Guns

Today my friend Dave and I went to the range to compare some of our handloaded ammunition to commercial ammunition.
We found some surprising results.


How a chronograph works:
The function of a ballistic chronograph is to give the velocity of a bullet shot over its sensors.
There are two photo sensitve sensors mounted at a predetermined distance from each other. When the bullet passes over the sensors, the presense of the shadow (or decrease in light) is recorded. The time difference in the recoding of the two shadows is noted and transalated into a velocity in feet/sec. This is displayed in an LCD window in the front of the chronograph. The white curved peices over the chrono are sun screens held up by Aluminum rods. They increase the possibilty of the shadow of the bullet being detected in direct sunlight.

From the bullet velocity recorded, a number of results can be interpolated. The formulae to calculate these are available in many location on the web and in most of the reloading handbooks. Our standard setup is to set the chronograph at 10 ft. from the muzzle (close enough to muzzle velocity) to keep it away from muzzle blast. We record our results on paper and use an Excel spread sheet to calculate the results on the spot. Results that we look for right away are average Muzzle Velocity, average Muzzle Energy and the standard deviation for the velocity.

Some results:

.357 Magnum (6 inch S&W 686)
Remington 125 gr. Jacketed Soft Point. M.E. approx 684 ft. lbs., M.V. 1569 fps
Federal 158 gr. HydraShok M.E. approx 580 ft. lbs, M.V. 1279 fps
Hornady 125 gr. FTX. M.E. 626 ft. lbs, M.V. 1500 fps

handload: 125 grain Hornady XTP, 21.5 grains of Winchester 296 powder.
M.E. approx. 705 ft. lbs, M.V. 1592 fps
According to the reloading manuals, there is room to increase the charge here, which should see and even greater increase in M.V. and M.E.

.40 S&W (CZ P-06)
Winchester (white box) 165 gr. Flat point, M.E. approx 471 ft lbs, M.V. 1100.6 fps

handload: 165 gr JHP, 6.5 gr. Power Pistol powder, M.E. 321 ft. lbs, M.V. 965.19 fps
Nice mild load. Some room to go up in charge, Max charge is listed at 7.8 grains of Power Pistol

9mm Luger (SIG P225/Tanfoglio TZ-75)
Hornady Critical Defense, 115 grain FTX, M.E. 277 ft. lbs, M.V. 1041 fps

handload: 115 gr. Rainier HP, 6.0 gr. Power Pistol powder, M.E. 324.65 ft. lbs, M.V. 1127.3 (shot with SIG 225 pistol)
handload: 115 gr. Rainier HP, 6.0 gr. Power Pistol powder, M.E. 301.13 ft. lbs, M.V. 1085.7 (shot with Tanfoglio TZ75)

Interesting to see the differneces here. Both pistols have the same barrel length. 6.0 grains is still a light load. Max load is still a ways away.

Summary: (most of this is common knowledge but it is nice to see actual figures)
1. Most probably due to liability reasons and the vast number of older guns in circulation, many manufacturers loadings are conservative.
2. Velocities listed on the box may not match what you attain out of your gun. The manufacturers test barrel length may be different from yours.
3. Different guns can produce different results with the same ammunition.
4. Some manufacturers ammunition is not loaded with the same care as others and this can produce large standard deviation numbers which in turn will affect group size. For example one manufacturers low end practice ammo produced a Std. Dev. of 288.44 whereas one batch of my handloaded ammo (with each charge weighed) produced a Std Dev. of 15.61. You can make your own assumption of groups sizes that will be attained with each regardless of the shooter or handgun.
5. Higher velocity will not always give you tight groups. A lot depends on the weight of the bullet used and the twist rate of the rifling.

Notes:
Manufacturers do not release powder info; i.e. type of powder or the weight of the charge. Some manufacturers use blended powders that result in reduced flash and maybe (?) attenuate the recoil and report. This is especially true for self defense loads.

One goal (for us) is to exceed the performance of the common commercial loadings without producing pressures that the gun and/or cartridge casing cannot handle. Rather than getting exceedingly technical let me just say that there are plenty of signs that can be observed in the spent cartridge as you start approaching the pressure limits of the casing. Most modern guns are strong enough to allow higher pressures than the factory loadings.
Another goal is to produce lower powered ammo for practice/plinking and introducing newcomers into the sport. Obviously this ammo must be capable of achieving good groups with the handgun in question.

Most probably due to liability reasons and the vast number of older guns in circulation, many manufacturers loadings are conservative.

even realoding manuals arent the gospel truth in terms of maximum charge. The 'maximum' is conservative due to the same reason. however PLEASE DONT EXCEED THIS. THIS CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS.

shooter wrote:

even realoding manuals arent the gospel truth in terms of maximum charge. The 'maximum' is conservative due to the same reason. however PLEASE DONT EXCEED THIS. THIS CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS.

Looking through older reloading manuals, it is possible to see how the max loads have decreased over the years. Of course powders have changed too so some of the older powders are no longer available.

I usually start on the low side and work my way up in half grain increments. Once I start approaching the max charge, I switch to 0.1 grain increments. Each new charge has its fired casings examined carefully for signs of excess pressure.
For my own self preservation, I subscribe to Pres. Reagan's maxim of "trust but verify".

So how many Crono 's you have blown up , I'm on the third one but second one still works with bows only.

True --- I pushed 150 gr Ballistics Tips in 300WM to 3429 f/s with H4831 / 80.0 gr then I just got chickened out - Haji

Hammerhead wrote:So how many Crono 's you have blown up , I'm on the third one but second one still works with bows only.

True --- I pushed 150 gr Ballistics Tips in 300WM to 3429 f/s with H4831 / 80.0 gr then I just got chickened out - Haji

I have shot my Chrono but it still works (phew!)
3429 on H4831... scary! The factory claims 78 grains is Max. If I may ask, what kind of rifle are you using, Haji?

I did see a load (300 Win Mag) for 3500 fps with 79.5 gr of H4350 with a claimed 4072 ft-lbs of M.E! This is over factory Max though.

Work up your loads. Be safe.

Everyone is getting anemic.

Thanks, xl, these sorts of comparisons are interesting. I do need to get a chronograph myself one of these days.

One reason for conservatism has to do with manufacturing, as well. The dimensions guns are held to do have tolerances which allow variations between guns off of the same assembly line, and keeping to these tolerances has more variations between the products of our international and surplus gun market, not to mention the many guns that have been made over the years. Just think how many variations of 9mm P weapons have been made over the last century +, or how the tolerance "stack up" can mount from one revolver to another, where one must consider the chamber throat, forcing cone, and then bore of the handgun.

So, knowing that a tight bore can increase pressures significantly, the ammo maker must plan for the worst case scenario, where the individual who handloads need only consider the guns they use.

Another factor is that each gun has its own harmonics, and different loads combining the various components available will have different accuracy potentials in a specific gun.

Then too, there are different qualities of components. The days are long gone when we had Winchester, Remington, and Federal brass to choose from. The present has good and bad about it: For instance, the introduction of high quality Lapua and Norma components, not to mention custom stuff like Starline or the special runs of competition brass gives the handloader a lot of choices (but at higher cost).

On the other hand, now much of the traditionally branded ammunition is made overseas by companies like Sellier and Ballot, and Prvi Partisan. Whether this is good or not is for each shooter to judge.

Then, too, we're seeing ammo coming from Russia that depends on the interesting metallurgy developed in the former Soviet Union, referring to steel cases and bullet jackets. This may not be bad at all, since those Soviet developers knew a thing or two about metallurgy!

Then we come to the subject of powders. The days of USA chemical companies have not ended, but they've waned, and we've got lots of Finnish and Australian powders available. Again, this isn't all bad, but it is different.

Part of what I'm driving at here is that, say, thirty years ago, one expected a certain quality from the big 3 ammo makers, and now we have a much wider range of manufacturing of components, and also of available ammunition as a completed product.

xl_target wrote:

Hammerhead wrote:So how many Crono 's you have blown up , I'm on the third one but second one still works with bows only.

True --- I pushed 150 gr Ballistics Tips in 300WM to 3429 f/s with H4831 / 80.0 gr then I just got chickened out - Haji

I have shot my Chrono but it still works (phew!)
3429 on H4831... scary! The factory claims 78 grains is Max. If I may ask, what kind of rifle are you using, Haji?

I did see a load (300 Win Mag) for 3500 fps with 79.5 gr of H4350 with a claimed 4072 ft-lbs of M.E! This is over factory Max though.

with xl i like to know as well , if you pushed 150 gr in 300WM with H4831 your max. loard is 77gr and it's give you a 3299F/S

Please explain this image. because i am useing H4350 , 68gr. and 190gr sierra match king JHPBT and it's give me a 2900 F/S and this is the max. with 190 gr. bullet


Baljit

Baljit, what exactly are you asking to be explained?

TwoRivers wrote:Baljit, what exactly are you asking to be explained?

Two River , Haji claims he pushed 150gr bullet at 3429 F/S with 80.0GR H4831 powder , but the Lyman 48th edition reloading handbook i have it's says your max. load in 300WM with 150Gr bullet is 77gr H4831 powder and it's give you a 3299F/S

like to know why he is going over the max. loads?, what kind of rifle he is using?, how about accuracy?

Any info. on this help me lot's because i am working on my load as well.

Baljit

timmy wrote:Thanks, xl, these sorts of comparisons are interesting. I do need to get a chronograph myself one of these days.

One reason for conservatism has to do with manufacturing, as well. The dimensions guns are held to do have tolerances which allow variations between guns off of the same assembly line, and keeping to these tolerances has more variations between the products of our international and surplus gun market, not to mention the many guns that have been made over the years. Just think how many variations of 9mm P weapons have been made over the last century +, or how the tolerance "stack up" can mount from one revolver to another, where one must consider the chamber throat, forcing cone, and then bore of the handgun.

So, knowing that a tight bore can increase pressures significantly, the ammo maker must plan for the worst case scenario, where the individual who handloads need only consider the guns they use.

Tim,
Take a look at the Hornady Critical Defense 9mm ammo. I was disappointed at the low ME and MV numbers. One would think that ammo that is specific for self defense, would have better ME numbers.

Baljit: Data given anywhere is for a particular load, i.e. powder lot, case make and lot, primer, bullet,(test) barrel and barrel length. Test barrels are made to minimum dimensions. Manufacturers usually hold "maximum" loads to 10% below the maximum pressure established for that cartridge. So data will vary from manual to manual. In the .300 Win Mag in particular, there have been two greatly different case weights, with different capacities. So, without knowing exactly Haji's load's details, I cannot say that his load is over maximum established pressure, for his rifle. His powder may be a slow lot. US military cases usually are also heavier than the commercials ones, with less capacity. Powders vary from lot to lot, by five to ten percent in burn rate. Norma powders seem to be the most consistent, lot to lot.

The case is the weak link, especially so in modern and strong actions. So, I would go as far as saying, that if a case can be reloaded three times without developing a loose primer pocket, your are not exceeding safe pressure for your particular rifle and cartridge. Though you are pushing it. An established maximum pressure for a particular cartridge is not the absolute safe pressure. Some are close, others have quite a bit of lee way. Remember, loading data is provided for the novice, and average idiot , and the people publishing the manual don't want to be sued. They play it safe. And since the average reloader will substitute different brand cases, bullets, and (no choice here) powder lots; they also admonish to start below the max data for a start, observe results, and slowly work up. And I can't say that I blame them. Especially if they are not using test barrels when developing loads, few did in the past, but an off-the-shelf rifle, with perhaps thousands of rounds through it.

Baljit wrote:

TwoRivers wrote:Baljit, what exactly are you asking to be explained?

Two River , Haji claims he pushed 150gr bullet at 3429 F/S with 80.0GR H4831 powder , but the Lyman 48th edition reloading handbook i have it's says your max. load in 300WM with 150Gr bullet is 77gr H4831 powder and it's give you a 3299F/S

like to know why he is going over the max. loads?, what kind of rifle he is using?, how about accuracy?

Any info. on this help me lot's because i working on my load as well.

Baljit

Sorry for being late -----( Voting in Ontario )
Looking for old Reloading data ..


Browning A-Bolt ,,, Three and half years ago bought new for $ 1400 + $ 450 scope
26 inch barrel
H4831SSC = Started at 68 gr and at exactly 72.5 was the perfectly accurate (1 1/2 @ 100 yrd) hunting load for 180 Partitions on moose

Then I got no use of Rifle after the hunt and started tweaking around and bought a Crono

Speer was giving IMR4831 loads for 130 grs bullet with 80.0 gr at the velocity of 3450 f/s, so it's a bit faster than H4831

So ------ there I started with 75 gr,78gr,then79.5, 80,80.3,80.5 but a good smratian stopped me at 80.0 with (150 Ballistic tips bought for long range deer)
Accuracy was not bad but the whole mechanism of rifle started jamming up, Way too much flatten primers with black edges and it was compressed powder in case ( memory serve me )

If I find the handbook for '08 then I can tell exact numbers but 3429 was an average of 3415,3424,,3431,3444 and some ten other random numbers. So I shot two batches in fives and made lots of noise and zings and start thinking that my scope is going to get busted
Other guy just asked me " what are trying to get out of a hunting rifle "


All I shot was few , then I just chickened out - Haji

"..., then I just chickened out - Haji". And a good thing, too. "Fools rush in, where angels fear to tread."