Indians For Guns

Why there is more recoil in firing an IOF 12 bore cartridge compare to any imported cartridge ? Is the quality of powder is bad ? or the weight is not accurate ?

Danish

The art of loading cartridges is rather involved and consists of many variables. A given powder/rate of burn and weight of powder might be optimum for one shot load but very poor performing with another. You`ll find that cartridge loading companies use several different powders in their range of cartridges. Certain companies manage to get things wrong - Sellier & Bellot for example whose shotgun cartridges were notoriously noisy and heavy recoiling. It wouldn`t have mattered so much if the extra noise and recoil were as a side effect of increased velocity but they were not - the performance was inferior all other major brands. S&B rifle ammunition had a similar poor reputation but some of what I`ve used recently has been much better than they used to be. I don`t know anyone that uses the shotgun cartridges ....... or even if they are still available in the UK after no one would buy them because their reputation was so bad.
I can`t comment on IOF cartridges because I`ve never used them but would be prepared to bet that the high recoil is a result of a less than optimum powder being used.....and probably the same powder being used for the whole range of shotgun cartridges they produce.

Grumpy,

Strangely, the IOFB still has a cordite plant and used cordite as propellant in some of it's ammunition production, long after the rest of the world consigned cordite to the dustbin. I have heard that the problems with feeding in the IOFB manufactured FALs as well as the new INSAS version of the Galil/R 4 have been because of the gas systems on these rifles getting clogged by ammunition loaded with cordite. They had a proposal to "modernise" the plant on it's centenary in 2004 - you can read about this at http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 500300.htm - but I have not heard anything about their switching to more modern propellants of the kind used in the rest of the world.

When you use this kind of obsolete tech, you could expect the end result to be flawed...

No wonder the .32 IOF Revolver I fired, with KF ammo, kicked back like a horse !!

danish21";p="16868 wrote:Why there is more recoil in firing an IOF 12 bore cartridge compare to any imported cartridge ?
Danish

Coz the folks at IOF use peg-measures to load their ammo!!

What is the bullet weight of IOF .32 Pistol cartridges ? And the revolver ones ?

Danish,
All that fancy talk apart on cordite and ballistics here are the real facts.

Problem - During your trip to Patna with me you fired 2 kinds of cartridges from my stock in the 65 mm chambered Charles Lanchaster.

Shot no. 7 by IOF, KF Special

Shot no. 9 by Victory of Cyprus.

Basic differences.

IOF use Nitrocellulose in their KF special cartridges, while Victory is made from modern powders of European origin, which are fast burning, do not foul the barrel and produce faster velocity.

KF loads are 30.1 grams ( 1 1/16 OZ ) while the victory was a skeet load of only 24 grams ( 7/8 Oz ). Obviously the Dram Eqv. of powder will be less to fire a smaller amount of shot.

These English guns are lighter than the IOF gun you mostly fire, Hence with the IOF cartridge you felt the recoil.

I too feel it during the first few days of my stay in India, but with more and more shooting you getr used to it within a few days. This is the load we have been shooting since our childhood days.

Cordite is the same as nitrocellulose.... different names, same chemical.

[Edited]

It's a matter of simple arithmetic. The more the weight of shot to be pushed out, the more the powder charge required. The more the powder charge the more the recoil. It's as simple as that. Have any of you tried Lyalvale Express (England) Shells of 42 gms. load and 1 1/4Oz. powder charge??? Try this one and you will find out what sound and recoil is all about. It gives you a headache after 3 or 4 shots.

Cheers;

Arindam.

Mehul, We are not discussing chemical composition of powders here. What is in the Herculus Green Dot or What Kent use, there is a lot of development on powders now, for shotgun cartridges for fast clean burning and different velocities.

When I get time I will write here an article which will cover all aspects of powders used in Gun cartridges.

And if Mehul you have plenty of time, we published some data about .303 British SPorting round by ELEY. Have a look at it with both eyes open.

Now, find out the difference between this and the service round and publish the differences.

Isn't Nitrocellulose different from the powder used in rifle cartridges ? There was ELEY smokeless Diamond, that was a similar powder, now there are many more modern powders, for that matter the powders in Hull, Kent, Lavalle Express and IOF Astrmas are different. More modern powders ?

I will write an article on the development of all these powders and their special compositions later. Meanwhile if you can add a bit of research on this, write it here.

Go to the University of NEwcastle Archives. Check under Army and Navy guns. They maintain archives for A & N. Publish independently your findings on various Birmingham, London or Continental gun makers who supplied products to Army and Navy. Find out first and then comment. I will leave it here for you to be surprised by the names that come up. Even H & H will feature there, so will W & C Scott.

[Edited]

Shahid,

If you reread Mehul's post, he has NOT made any direct personal attack at you, he has attacked the post though (which is allowed as per the new rules), but I repeat not attacked you personally.

You on the other hand have directly attacked him as a person references to "smart pants", "smart alec", "kid" and finally a reference to his appearance in terms of his beard.

I would like to point out the the rules are uniform for everyone, and the very reason they were added to recently was to clarify any doubt there may have been in anyone's mind as to what we would allow and what we would not allow here.

Am issuing you a yellow card and hope there will be no further personal attacks from your side.

Once again, attack the information/ post BUT NEVER the person.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Issue a yellow card, shoot a bullet, everything is welcome. It is obvious Mehul is making snide personal attacks on me again. He too should be issued a yellow card.

Shahid,

What I say now, I say as a friend and I am sure you would take it the right spirit.

Often times how one says something is more important than what one says. If something is stated as a fact, it is open to others attacking that fact and proving otherwise. Attacking a fact or a statement is not an attack on the person who made that statement.

In a "disconnected" medium such as an online forum, where you are not able to pick up on a lot of silent cues that you would in a real face to face conversation, it can be harder to convey what is meant and much easier for something to be interpreted in a way that it was never intended. Therefore, the need to exercise even more caution in terms of how we word our posts.

For example, the .303 chambering - you mentioned that the .303 sporting was a chambering, different from the .303 British military chambering. Now a different chambering means that 2 types of ammunition would not be interchangeable and a gun chambered for one would not be able to chamber and fire the other round and vice versa.

However, from Danish's post of the .303 Eley sporting round it seems clear that the .303 sporting you were referring to was in fact a different loading, and not a different chambering. The difference here between the words loading and chambering is significant, as a different loading would mean that the two rounds could in fact be fired from any rifle chambered for .303 British, even though they would have different ballistics etc.

Now, think calmly and picture a complete novice to guns shooting. He comes and reads your post - which no one has corrected. He thinks that .303 Sporting is a different chambering and (this is completely hypothetical of course) asks a gun dealer to sell him a rifle chambered in .303 "sporting", (again hypothetical as .303 is a PB calibre so getting a license is next to impossible), anyhow continuing the hypothetical scenario - the dealer (unscrupulous as most Indian dealers are) sells him an ordinary .303 SMLE with .303 "sporting" stamped on it and makes a handsome profit.

Don't you think we would be doing the novice a disservice by allowing incorrect information to stand uncorrected?

Anyhow, I do hope I have been able to articulate well enough the fact that someone correcting/ attacking a post is not attacking the poster. And it needs to be looked at in that light.

Also, no one here expects everyone to like everyone else. Humans don't work like that and it's an unreasonable expectation. However, we do expect everyone to be civil to each other and not attack each other on posts. As it is shooters gun enthusiasts suffer from an image problem - the last thing we need is a public spat on the forums with members hurling abuses at each other!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

P.S. - I do hope you will edit out the personal attacks from your posts and reword them to reflect a healthy debate as opposed to an argument.

Hey! Shahid. Come on man. Take it in good spirits. No one is perfect in this world and everyone has a right to his or her opinion whether one concurs with it or not. I am sure Mehul was just pulling your legs so you should not have taken it personally. Guys. This life is too short for wasting on useless fighting and one-upmanship and these type of incidents leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth whether involved directly or not. So Guys, please have consideration for others also. As long as you know yourself you don't need to prove anything to anyone, man. So just take it easy. The more a tree is laden with fruits the more it bends towards the ground. Humility is the name of the game.

Best.

Arindam.