Indians For Guns

Priyan wrote:Very informative post but I still think reloading 9mm would be cost effective if one shoots a ton of ammo. Considering the initial cost of $1000 to $10,000 depending on the equipment time and efforts needed. I think it would be cost effective for frequent shooters like you but for occasional shooters reloading 9mm won't be cost effective but for big game hunters and .50BMG rifle owners it would be very cost effective.

BTW customizing ammo for different uses seems nice. I guess I'd start handloading if I ever manage to get into the holy place named United States of America
Is there any cookbook which defines how much powder to use, what should be the length of the cartridge after reloading etc. or one have to learn it by trail and error? If there's any source for this, I'd really appreciate it if you link me to them

Oh, another question. Is there any limit on on how much ammo one can own in USA. I mean will the ATF pay me a visit if I buy like 1,00000 ammo at once to get some discount.

Actually you can start reloading for a very small initial outlay. When I was a poor college student, I started reloading for my deer rifle with a Lee Loader and a beam scale.

At that time a Lee loader cost $19.99 and the beam scale cost another $20 or so. Powder, Bullets and Primers were next. I dont think my whole outlay was over $60.
It is slow and tedious but for a deer rifle, it is more than adequate. You can make about 1 round every couple of minutes. Less if you use their included powder measure.
You can still buy the Lee Loader and it did make decent, accurate ammo for my rifle. Its about $35 nowadays.

You can also look at some thing like Lee's Breech Lock Hand Press for about $60. Dies would be extra (Lee 9mm dies are about $40-$50 retail, depending on caliber).


Today there are starter kits available for a low price. Lee has their anniversary kit for $99.99.


RCBS has the partner press kit for $175, etc. Lyman and Hornady also have starter kits and sell single stage presses. All the other manufacturers have some kind of starter kit and/or a single stage press.
Most people start with a single stage press of some kind and once they get into it and build confidence in themselves, many will get a progressive. It just depends on how much you shoot. If you shoot a lot of pistol, you will probably want a progressive, where every pull of the handle will give you one cartridge.

So say that you, Priyan, are going to start reloading and you don't want to spend a ton of money, you might start with something like this:
Hardware costs ($ 159.97)
Anniversary Press kit from Lee for $99.99
You add a set of Lee deluxe 9mm dies for $39.99 (4 dies)
Kinetic Bullet Puller for $19.99

Consumables. ($ 94.99)
1 lb of powder for $19.99
1000 primers for $30.00
500 bullets for $45.00 (9mm, 115 Grain plated hollow points)

So you are looking at $250 to get started with one caliber. Subsequent calibers are just the cost of the dies themselves and the consumables. Sometimes you can share consumables between calibers. For example, I use the same powder and primers for 9mm and .40 S&W but usually you will use different powder for rifles and pistols. You could spend more and you could spend less. There are individuals who produce a few dozen bullets a year to commercial operations that produce thousands of rounds a day. Just depends on what you want to do.

Go to this site HERE and put in your costs.


In this instance, if you shoot just one 50 round box a week, you will pay for your reloader in about 6 months. If you shoot 100 rounds a week (very easy to do this), you will pay for your reloader in three months. After that any savings are gravy.
So you can start saving up for your next press, or just shoot more on the same budget, whatever. That is for 9mm, which is pretty cheap. For other calibers the savings can be much greater. Cheap (Winchester White Box) .357 Magnum ammo can be $30 a box.

Most people find that they don't really save money, they just end up shooting more.

Is there any cookbook which defines how much powder to use, what should be the length of the cartridge after reloading etc. or one have to learn it by trail and error? If there's any source for this, I'd really appreciate it if you link me to them

As far as load data goes:
All the major powder manufacturers print load data for their powders. Here are the sites of some of the major powder manufacturers:
Alliant
Hodgdon
Accurate
Vihtavuori (Lapua)

In addition manufacturers who make reloading equipment also publish manuals (usually annually) that are avaulable in most places that sell reloading equipment
Hornady
Lee
RCBS
Lyman
Dillon

Oh, another question. Is there any limit on on how much ammo one can own in USA. I mean will the ATF pay me a visit if I buy like 1,00000 ammo at once to get some discount.

If you are a law abiding citizen, legally allowed to possess firearms, I am not aware of any law that restricts ammo by quantity but there are some laws regarding storage and transport of explosives.
After you have so much in one place, you have to follow specific procedures for safe storage.

A huge thanks to you for your extremely informative post. Til now I thought reloading under $500 was impossible. Now I see I'm dead wrong. Man you tempted me more into getting settled in USA
I really wish reloading equipments were available in India so I can start reloading right now. If I'm correct reloading in the USA doesn't require any special permit right?
BTW what is the minimum price for a progressive loader, does using one make the job a lot faster or just a little bit?

Talking of safe storage, Would a locker made out of stainless steel qualify as one? Also is smokeless powder considered as explosive under United States law while they are inside cartridge?

XL: great write up! There are cost savings to be realized by reloading, but as you are pointing out, using a Lee Loader is going to make reloading pretty tedious if one does much shooting. On the other hand, one can move up through bench presses, turret presses, and even progressive reloaders like the Dillon line, but one would have to shoot quite a bit to make such an expensive tool be cost effective. Of course, one can also do a lot of shooting with the amount of ammo a Dillon can pour out!

When I was young with little ones at home, I had to keep my shooting expenses at the lowest possible to enable my shooting hobby. So, my .22 Marlin 39A was king of the shooting heap. To shoot my handguns, I turned to reloading and bullet casting. I was shooting a 1911 .45 ACP and a Ruger in .45 Colt. Once I purchased my brass, my only expenses were powder and primers. At that time, primers were about a penny a piece and powder was about a penny and a half a round. 2.5¢ was very close to nearly 2¢ that .22 LR was going for at the time.

Bullets didn't cost me anything, as I had a good supply of scrap lead from which to cast bullets. I had scrap lead from plumbing pipes and telephone cables, as well as range lead dug from the traps behind the targets. I used a Lee double cavity mold for 230 gr round nose bullets -- these would feed through the 1911 and also work fine in the Ruger.

For brass, I had some interesting sources: I already mentioned the 10 boxes of reloaded .45 ACP I bought (this was the "adventure of the great wood stove fire" story). Also, I was a member of a very old gun club that had seen much better days. The 25 and 50 yard ranges were pretty broken down, but were still used. I found that, climbing onto the benches, the gutters of the roof overhang were full of .45 ACP cases from the combat competitions held there.

For shooting at targets and varmints, this reloading procedure worked fairly well. However, one afternoon, I ran into another club member at the rifle shop. He invited me out to a combat shoot. In just a few minutes, I had burned through 4 boxes (200 rounds) of .45 ACP! This would be an afternoon's shooting in my previous mode. There was no way I could reload ammunition quickly enough to feed this sort of habit!

Now, using the Lee equipment will make reloaded ammo, but there are faster ways to do things that can save you a lot of time for a little money:

1. Reload for straight-walled pistol/revolver cartridges. This will allow you to buy carbide die sets, which are only a little more expensive. The Lee dies are good quality and the carbide set is only a few dollars more. It will save you oodles of time lubricating and wiping clean your reloads. There is probably nothing cheaper to shoot than a .38 Special -- about 2.5 to 3 gr of Bullseye will go a long way (there are 7000 gr in a pound of powder) and once you have your brass, your other expenses will be bullets and primers.

2. Scrounge! I bought a huge box of .38 Special brass that I'm still using. There was a big box at the rifle shop and I asked how much the whole box would cost. John started to count, and then he proposed to weigh it. I still don't know how many hundreds of cases were in it. Some were no good, but there were many matched boxes of 50 in it of very nice brass, which I'm still using. Lead can be available from many places, if you look.

3. Cast bullets: bullets are the single biggest expense to reloading, if you buy them. If you cast them, shooting slow bullets is cheaper, because you don't have to worry so much about having really hard alloys that prevent leading. There are two considerations here: If you are shooting a semi-auto, you will have to chase brass all over the range. If you shoot a revolver, you will need to buy a Lewis Lead Remover to clean the barrel (especially the forcing cone) of lead deposits -- take your choice. I started with the Lee Sizer Kit. Here, you put your cast bullets in a pan and pour molten lubricant into the pan. When the lubricant hardens, you cut the bullets out with a little cookie cutter - like affair. Later, I graduated to using an RCBS luber-sizer, which is much much faster and cleaner, but of course, it costs more. It takes a lot of time to cast bullets. I always did it outside, because breathing lead fumes is a very bad thing.

If you shoot a rifle, it costs more, because you use more powder. Also, if you are going to have very much speed to the bullets you cast, you will need to pay a lot more attention to the bullet alloy you are using. There are a number of ways of going about this, but let's just say here that your sources of scrounged lead will need a lot more consideration for cast rifle bullets. All in all, shooting a low velocity pistol or revolver is about as cheap as you can shoot. Of course, if you have a rifle like those used in cowboy action shooting, which are chambered for revolver rounds like .357, .44, or .45 Colt, then you will be able to shoot pretty cheaply as well. (However, remember that Marlin lever actions with micro-groove barrels can be tricky to load cast bullets for.)

So, if you want to do a LOT of shooting, reloading can cut the costs, but the cost is inversely proportional to the time you are willing to invest. For instance, I have not yet bought the Hensley & Gibbs gang mold that I'd like to have for my Colt .38 Specials. The old Colts used a smaller than .357" bullet -- right now, I'm using 147 gr round nosed 9mm parabellum bullets that are .356" in size. These bullets have the proper fit to the chambers on the cylinders of my old Colts. I have a .358" mold I use for my newer Detective Special, but for the old ones, I like to use a proper size bullet to keep the pressures to a minimum. Until I get that expensive Hensley & Gibbs gang mold, I will have to buy bullets. But when I get that mold, you had better keep an eye on your fishing tackle sinkers!

None of this is intended to disagree with XL's great help. His advice is sound. I only intend to add a little of my own experience to his comments.

Priyan:

1. Progressives are a lot faster than single stage presses. However more suited to pistol ammo, or bulk ammo. Wouldnt want to use one to load accuracy/target loads for rifles. Then that is me.

2. Smokeless powder is not explosive unless under pressure. Inside of a cartridge under normal operation the powder does explode since its under pressure. But classified as ammunition rather than a explosive. Then again I am no expert on US law.

3. 100,000 rounds of ammunition is not unheard of. However in what caliber? Out of a rifle in any caliber you will have worn the gun out a long time before hitting 100K. Infact you could wear out several before that number. The average rifle will begin to loose accuracy around 1700 mark, and be worn out by 2-2.5 K if you want to mantain under 1 MoA. Some calibers differ and wear out quicker or later. The .22-250 will begin going at about 1-1.5 K while a .308 might be good for 10K. YMMV on several factors.

Aside from which there is a simple consideration of storage. Ammo is bulky, I know first hand. Or better still ask my wife. I have a hell of a lot less than 100K spread across at least a dozen calibers (~10K) and have run out of storage in a meaningful way at home.
Plus ammo is expensive. Even assuming .22 LR for say $4 per 50 its going to set you back $8K which is a small fortune. A pallet of .22 LR is approximately 7 inchesx24x36 and holds 5K. It adds up very quickly.

Great advice on the scrounging and casting, Timmy. I always look forward to your stories and experiences.
I only showed the Lee stuff because it was a way to keep costs down. Besides that they make perfectly passable ammunition.
You're correct, the major cost of a round is the bullet itself. The cheapest is, of course, cast lead. I really looked at casting my own but I just cant afford the time. I have way too many hobbies. I am also a model railroader and that takes up a tremendous amount of my time. In the summer I like to ride my motorcycles. In the winter there are also many distractions. Did you know that a 165 hp Ski-Doo will do 120 mph on a frozen lake? I didn't till the other day. Besides that I try to spend some time with the family. LOL.

I kept away from lead because in the winter, I do use an indoor range once in a while. So instead I chose to buy bullets. 115 gr 9mm Rainier plated HP's are 44.95 per 500 or on the other extreme, 180 grain .40 S&W Hornady XTP's are $19.99 per 100. For the amount that I shoot, a single stage press keeps me well supplied. Besides that it is relaxing to take my time and do a good job while reloading. I also weigh my charges quite often, especially for rifles, which takes time. I wish I had to time to shoot more but unfortunately, I don't. I do scrounge all my brass. I haven't bought brass yet. I also don't shoot my rifles that much, except for the 10/22. I also do prefer Carbide dies.

If I'm correct reloading in the USA doesn't require any special permit right?
BTW what is the minimum price for a progressive loader, does using one make the job a lot faster or just a little bit?

Talking of safe storage, Would a locker made out of stainless steel qualify as one? Also is smokeless powder considered as explosive under United States law while they are inside cartridge?

No permits are required for reloading for personal use. Progressive loaders will be many times faster than a single stage reloader but the cost goes up with the complexity. you r output could be three or four times on a progressive. I would have to shoot quite a bit more than I shoot now to justify a progressive. An RCBS Pro 2000 progressive is $753.95. Keep in mind I have to buy stuff for my other hobbies too.
Here is what is recommended for powder storage:
http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting_st ... mendations
A stainless steel locker might not be the best idea especially if it is built really tight. Pressure building on smokeless powder intensifies the burn. I do believe reloading powders are classed as explosives here.

we have to keep in mind the Indian view point, no smokeless powder/caps can be had so no reloading pistol/rifle ammo.

XL,Timmy and MoA, very informative posts and thank you for taking the time to type out such elaborate posts. Learnt a a lot .


Best-
Vikram

GREAT information above.

I've been reloading shotshells on a MEC 9000G for a few years now. Like someone said above, its not really money saving, it just feels that way. We reloaders don't factor in the cost of our time we put into reloading. I've always saved my brass too, I have a bunch of .38s, 30/06 and .223 brass. I bought a used Lyman Turret press a couple of weeks back and a tumbler and primer press. I need to add the rest soon and I can start reloading rifle/pistol ammo too. I don't shoot those as much to warrant reloading but I just wanted to get into it, so maybe sometime soon I will. I know guys at the club who burn thru 1000 rounds a week if not more. I know competitors burn thru maybe ten times as much and of course they use progressives.

Then there is the other end of the spectrum. Those going for ULTIMATE accuracy, these guys can put in multiple rounds in the same hole at more than a hundred yards or two. This is a game of high precision, cleaning, trimming, measuring, multiple times and measuring again, each component. I'd weigh one in five, they'd measure one cartridge five times. When I stop by sometimes and browse the reloading magazines at the mag rack, it makes me feel cheap to just buy the WWBs (Winchester White Box).

Then there are the tinkerers, who just like to try different loads, powders, primers, various mixes. It can get pretty wild pretty fast.

Check Youtube guys, there are a lot of videos there on reloading too.

HSharief wrote:Then there is the other end of the spectrum. Those going for ULTIMATE accuracy, these guys can put in multiple rounds in the same hole at more than a hundred yards or two. This is a game of high precision, cleaning, trimming, measuring, multiple times and measuring again, each component. I'd weigh one in five, they'd measure one cartridge five times. .

you mean like this?

MoA wrote:Priyan:

1. Progressives are a lot faster than single stage presses. However more suited to pistol ammo, or bulk ammo. Wouldnt want to use one to load accuracy/target loads for rifles. Then that is me.

2. Smokeless powder is not explosive unless under pressure. Inside of a cartridge under normal operation the powder does explode since its under pressure. But classified as ammunition rather than a explosive. Then again I am no expert on US law.

3. 100,000 rounds of ammunition is not unheard of. However in what caliber? Out of a rifle in any caliber you will have worn the gun out a long time before hitting 100K. Infact you could wear out several before that number. The average rifle will begin to loose accuracy around 1700 mark, and be worn out by 2-2.5 K if you want to mantain under 1 MoA. Some calibers differ and wear out quicker or later. The .22-250 will begin going at about 1-1.5 K while a .308 might be good for 10K. YMMV on several factors.

Aside from which there is a simple consideration of storage. Ammo is bulky, I know first hand. Or better still ask my wife. I have a hell of a lot less than 100K spread across at least a dozen calibers (~10K) and have run out of storage in a meaningful way at home.
Plus ammo is expensive. Even assuming .22 LR for say $4 per 50 its going to set you back $8K which is a small fortune. A pallet of .22 LR is approximately 7 inchesx24x36 and holds 5K. It adds up very quickly.

So... a progressive loader is something that makes the job faster but not good as a single step press, right?
Thanks for the info about smokeless powder, maybe I'll mail ATF to confirm it just to be on the safe side (Hell, I don't wanna get deported over some stupid S**t like this if I get a green card)
100K ammo not in a single caliber maybe a few Ks in 9mm, few on 7.62 NATO some on 5.56 and very few on the good ol' .50BMG I'm just thinking about stocking ammo as they are getting expensive now-a-days. Also last time I called a gunshop located in Houston, TX they said they gives dealer discounts for purchase over 10K ammo. BTW is hunting with military rounds are allowed in Europe as long as the gun is semi-auto?
As you said rifles tends to lose accuracy after few K rounds, is there any way to restore it to original state, will rebarreling fix it?

-- Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:34 am --

xl_target wrote:No permits are required for reloading for personal use. Progressive loaders will be many times faster than a single stage reloader but the cost goes up with the complexity. you r output could be three or four times on a progressive. I would have to shoot quite a bit more than I shoot now to justify a progressive. An RCBS Pro 2000 progressive is $753.95. Keep in mind I have to buy stuff for my other hobbies too.
Here is what is recommended for powder storage:
http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting_st ... mendations
A stainless steel locker might not be the best idea especially if it is built really tight. Pressure building on smokeless powder intensifies the burn. I do believe reloading powders are classed as explosives here.

$753.95 doesn't seem too expensive frequent shooters specially if they own any FA weapon. I heard one can make about 250 rounds in a hour with this.
Reading the powder storage recommendation I think a box made out of 1 inch thick wood should do the trick, I guess US laws approves this as safe storage.

Reloading is a nice hobby within the shooting hobby, yet a person should be careful and not ignore the toxic aspect of handloading. Handloading significantly increases a shooter's exposure to easily absorbable and highly toxic Lead compounds from the exploded priming mix (Lead Styphnate in the primer). Starting from picking up spent cases (the cases are nicely covered with toxic lead compound rich soot) at the range, washing them, polishing, sizing and finally reloading a person his belongings and home/family is exposed multiple times to the lead compounds deposited as soot on spent cases.

Unless proper precautions are taken (handwashing after shooting/reloading, not eating/drinking/smoking while shooting/reloading, wearing nitrile gloves while cleaning firearms/reloading etc..), improper handloading as well as spending too much time in poorly ventilated indoor gun ranges are some of the leading causes of lead poisoning.

I've been reloading shotshells on a MEC 9000G for a few years now.

How are you able do do that in misriganj?

Thanks for the wonderful write up x/l target.
I suppose its the cheaper kit for me as I only shoot maybe every month. And that too bolt action so dont expend much ammo. with the bullets costing more than £1 each, i suppose even a small time shooter like me should start.

Though MoA has been kindly encouraging me, i am just a bit scared of doing 'all that'.

I do however shoot a bit more shotgun shells than i do rifles so if you have any such write up for that, please post it.
I for one will thank you forever.

BTW is hunting with military rounds are allowed in Europe as long as the gun is semi-auto

Military ammunition in most western countries is Full Metal Jacketed.
When hunting, your object is not just to shoot an animal. A quick, humane kill is a must for most hunters, therefore most hunters use some kind of expanding bullet that will expend all it energy in the animal and put it down quick. FMJ's will usually penetrate right through an animal, possibly leaving it to suffer a lingering death. Many states in the US require you to use expanding ammo for hunting certain game species. African Big Game hunting with solids is a whole different ball game.

You want to be realistic about your ammo purchase questions. Do the math on the amount you would have to outlay for that purchase.

Handloading significantly increases a shooter's exposure to easily absorbable and highly toxic Lead compounds from the exploded priming mix (Lead Styphnate in the primer). Starting from picking up spent cases (the cases are nicely covered with toxic lead compound rich soot) at the range, washing them, polishing, sizing and finally reloading a person his belongings and home/family is exposed multiple times to the lead compounds deposited as soot on spent cases.

There is a concern with vaporized lead as the human the body can absorb lead in several different ways. However, lead poisoning through the skin is virtually impossible, but there are always concerns with cross-contamination (eating with lead on the hands, etc.). Lead must be ingested to cause harm. Picking up fired cartridges will not give you lead poisoning unless you lick your fingers after doing that. Remember to wash your hands before you eat or smoke. Just recall the basic hygiene that you were taught in elementary school and at home and you should be OK.
One possible source for lead poisoning comes from airborne lead when you open your tumbler after it has finished a batch of brass. Inhaling the dust as you try to separate the media from the brass is a big no-no. Once your brass is clean, you should not have any lead inhalation issues. I don't have a tumbler so after depriming, I soak empties in Vinegar for 20 mins, I then soak them in a Baking Soda solution (with a drop of dish soap) for 20 minutes to neutralize the vinegar. Then I rinse them in a colander and put them in open trays to air dry. After loading, a brisk rubdown with a soft cloth will make them shine if I need them to be really shiny.

No smoking, eating or drinking is tolerated in the reloading room. When I leave the room, I will wash my hands before I do anything else.

shooter wrote:I do however shoot a bit more shotgun shells than i do rifles so if you have any such write up for that, please post it.
I for one will thank you forever.

I will work up a separate post on this later tonight.

I recently came across this post which had a number of videos in it that explained reloading much better than I have done.
They go through the different steps as well as the basics of die adjustment. For many of you this might be boring but if you are interested in the mechanics of metallic cartridge reloading, it is very a well thought out and explained series of videos.

http://carryforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15674