Indians For Guns

I have been poking about into the subject of what English speakers would call "Wootz steel." Many many years ago, I asked my Dad (who was deeply involved in the steel making industry) about the legendary "blades of Damascus" and he said that any kind of steel could be made today (which was maybe 45 years ago). Some people claim that the Russian Pavel Anosov may (or may not) have duplicated the properties of Wootz steel in his Bulat steel.

A couple of years ago, while I was in college, I read an interesting article in Nature, where one investigator hypothesized that Wootz steel, besides its already-noted cemetite formations (making it similar to a ceramic blade), also had carbon nanotubes, which allowed it to keep such a sharp edge.

I am fascinated to read that archeologists have so far discovered that the manufacture of Wootz was occurring at least as early as 300 BC in Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka, where the temperatures achieved by the ancient kilns were achieved with stronger drafts aided by monsoon winds.

I would have liked to have written something up about Wootz, but I feel I'm still learning. Here are some very interesting academic papers I've found on the subject, for those of you who might be interested:

Carbon nanotechnology in an 17th century Damascus sword A blog article that pretty much duplicates the original Nature article.

The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades

Historical Background of Damascus blades (There are other copies of this on the web -- faced with the choice of posting one with pictures, as opposed to footnotes, I chose the one with pictures.)

(This is a pdf file -- 1.7 MB. It probably isn't modem friendly, but it is one great read in the academic sense!) Microstructure of a genuine Damascus sabre (This was the research on which the Nature article of a couple of years ago regarding carbon nanotubes was based.)

Wootz Steel: An advanced material of the ancient world (an article from the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore)

This is a more complete document from the Indian Institute of Science (this is a pdf of ~500 KB)

Duplication of Wootz at a Swedish University

The Replication of Wootz (A USA college student's project, duplicating Wootz)

My question is, does anyone have any experience regarding real (not simulated) edged weapons made of Wootz, whether ancient or modern? I have seen knives made to look like Wootz, but I am referring to the real thing.

I confess a real admiration and interest in the mastery of metallurgy at such an early date. Although nobody understood that traces of vanadium were the essential "secret ingredient" of Wootz (something discovered only relatively recently), those early metal workers surely understood the desirable properties inherent in this, the most modern carbon nanotube technology!

Thanks a lot. I've been fascinated by Damascened blades for a long time now- these are great resources.
As far as experience with historical blades- I've unfortunately never handled a true Damascus blade.

No "experience" besides owning an old wootz peshqabs.

I have seen some examples of wootz in museums but never been lucky enough to handle or own one
I doubt the monsoon winds had anything to do with the manufacturing process, they usually did it in a furnace stoked by bellows.
If any of our members have a wootz blade please post some closeup pics of the blade surface so that we, the less fortunate ones can have a peek.
Regards,
Yaj.

Going a bit off-topic, Timmy, after reading the links provided by you (which are a great source of info, thanks for sharing), I am saddened by the fact that we Indians, though the originators of such great blade work, have completely lost the retention of such great technology. I doubt anywhere in India, can one actually find damascus or wootz blades other than museums or probably private collections.

We have a member here from Udaipur Rajasthan who have a family business in the manufacture of Damascus blades and axe heads. Iam poor at posting links so have just copy pasted the info I could find
THE CURIOUS HOUSE (P) LTD.
42, PARIMAR ESTATE, 42 PRATAP MARG, SWAROOP SAGAR, UDAIPUR - 313004, RAJASTHAN, INDIA
Phone:91-294-2529165/2523206
Fax:91-294-2523206/2529165
Key Personnel
MR. Pradeep Singh Parihar (PROPRIETOR)
Mobile : +919414163166

Timmy: Great to see all the references for a serious study all in one place. I'm going to trawl through all of them over the weekend
Yaj: There is an archaeological excavation in Sri Lanka that exposed massive furnaces that were mud covered and built into hillsides. They had ceramic air flues that received prevailing winds to oxygenate the furnaces - from which it was hypothesized that this might have been a seasonal exercise (monsoonal). The slow burn cooking time for the ore was in weeks.
Timmy: I've been coming to the conclusion, over a long time, that much of the secret of Indian Wootz is in the ore.
Bun ingots of steel were exported from South India centuries ago and used to make the Damascus blades prized by Crusader and Saracen alike. Furnace technology today is as advanced as it's ever been, so I feel much the secret of Wootz steel in the ore.
I remember a swordsmith I saw in Toledo (Spain) as a kid who claimed he was one of the last people making Damascus swords. I now feel my young brain probably confused "Damascene" with Damascus
To answer your original question; No I have not handled a Wootz steel blade. I have seen a few that people swore were Wootz steel, but had no way of verifying this.
Many thanks for a great post.

Ashok

Goldfinger wrote:We have a member here from Udaipur Rajasthan who have a family business in the manufacture of Damascus blades and axe heads. Iam poor at posting links so have just copy pasted the info I could find
THE CURIOUS HOUSE (P) LTD.
42, PARIMAR ESTATE, 42 PRATAP MARG, SWAROOP SAGAR, UDAIPUR - 313004, RAJASTHAN, INDIA
Phone:91-294-2529165/2523206
Fax:91-294-2523206/2529165
Key Personnel
MR. Pradeep Singh Parihar (PROPRIETOR)
Mobile : +919414163166

some body from Rajastan offering damascus kind of blank blades on ebay.in

looks like pretty good work



Recently I've seen few Sikh's blades made of Damascus steel in handicraft emporium on Janpath road opposite Macdonalds in Delhi.

Some forum members had got knives from the owner of this site
http://www.nvsikligar.com/

He is a member here with us and not the posted by me earlier

lazybones wrote: Yaj: There is an archaeological excavation in Sri Lanka that exposed massive furnaces that were mud covered and built into hillsides. They had ceramic air flues that received prevailing winds to oxygenate the furnaces - from which it was hypothesized that this might have been a seasonal exercise (monsoonal). The slow burn cooking time for the ore was in weeks.

Yes Ashok, I have read about that but somehow not too convinced how it could work consistently.

Subal, Goldfinger the Damascus you refer too is not Wootz but the modern pattern welded blades which are referred to as Damascus.
Regards,
Yaj.

... the Damascus you refer too is not Wootz but the modern pattern welded blades which are referred to as Damascus.

I think Yaj has this right. It seems as if a lot of folks produce Damascene finishes, but very few actually use Wootz.

The cementite in the Wootz would allow the carbide-like particles to act like a carbide blade. The carbon nanotubes would also make the edge sharp and also allow it to remain very sharp.

We've all heard the story of the Arabs demonstrating the sharpness of their Damascus blades by allowing a sheer scarf to fall on a blade, resulting in its being cut solely by its own weight. What I wonder is, just how sharp are these Wootz blades, really? How would their sharpness compare to something we might be familiar with today?

But really, isn't this stuff so amazing? It is really incredible to think of such technology so far back. I am sorry to get so silly about it, but I feel all to often we are so fixated by are technology (which is a true accomplishment) that we often fail to recognize how smart those ancients were!

What is the difference between modern pattern welded blades and real damascus?

kanwar76 wrote:What is the difference between modern pattern welded blades and real damascus?

A pattern welded blade is made by forge welding together billets of steel with different carbon contents and folding them repeatedly to form patterns. On etching the pattern is highlighted due to the differing carbon content.
In wootz the pattern is due to the crystalline structure of the steel itself with micro carbides,pearlite and martensite forming the famous characteristic patterns.
Regards,
Yaj.

The best examples of "snakes" I've seen are on daggers from the Peshwa period.
For those who live in (or visit) Poona; go to the University of Poona in Ganeshkhind. Enter the main building (the old Residency building that houses the Vice Chancellor's office). As you enter the main hall, look left. There's a teak wood, glass fronted display case with shields, swords and a clutch of mean looking daggers. Look closely at the patterns on the dagger blades. They are magnificent.
I'd be grateful if someone could post pictures of the blades.

For those interested in ancient metallurgy there's an iron smelter from the Megalithic period (around 1000 BC) on display at the Museum, of the Department of Archaeology, of the Deccan College -also in Poona. It's about two feet high and is from an excavation in Vidharbha (near Nagpur).

Ashok

Yaj wrote:

kanwar76 wrote:What is the difference between modern pattern welded blades and real damascus?

A pattern welded blade is made by forge welding together billets of steel with different carbon contents and folding them repeatedly to form patterns. On etching the pattern is highlighted due to the differing carbon content.
In wootz the pattern is due to the crystalline structure of the steel itself with micro carbides,pearlite and martensite forming the famous characteristic patterns.
Regards,
Yaj.

Thanks Yaj,

How old is pattern welding technic? because I think I have seen wootz swords many times in the past

And how good are these pattern welding blades? Obiously they are not going to be as good as wootz but still are they worth investing in? I am thinking of buying a pattern welded Talwar with koftgari inlays.

-Inder