Need guidance in restoring these swords

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rajesh.rajesh
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Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by rajesh.rajesh » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:32 pm

Hi, I picked these swords from my grandfather. I am thinking of restoring them and give him a pleasant surprise. Both the hilt and blades appear heavily rusted, quite a pitting on hilt. I need some guidance / pointers on how to go about with restoring them. Eventually, I am looking at some brass work on the hilt and ornamentation with brass/silver.

I am afraid of sanding them as they are in poor state. Will I be able to reinforce them by electroplating. Are there any more alternatives that I am missing out. I request you all to pour in your guidance and suggestions. If anyone has before and after pics of sword restoration please share.

Btw, I read about restoration what Grumpy had posted. (added by Mundaire). It was an interesting read.

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In the above pic : Is the topmost (longest) a Firangi ? The bottom two must be Indian talwars. What about the 2nd from top ?
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The hilt and its profile is so adorable.
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What are those lines on the blade ?
Image
Image
Image

-Rajesh.

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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by ramtiger » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:39 pm

This swords need licence or not ?

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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by rajesh.rajesh » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:59 pm

That is one reason why I am hesitant to keep them. The length of all the four are certainly more than 9". So they will automatically be classified as weapons. Two of these are atleast 50 yrs old. I am still reading about the arms act for if there are any provisions for antiques/heirlooms and if so how to claim that.

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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by perfectionist1 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:33 pm

They are heirloom and can be easly qualify as one, restore it for decoration piece. Take lawyers advice and may be some certificate.

Cheers

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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by Moin. » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:01 am

Wow, have these been pulled out of the Titanic :mrgreen:

Katanaji/Rajat where art thou !!. The one in the top pic is a Khanda with a typical hindu box hilt. The lines are fullering on the blade for 1) making it lighter-less material on the blade 2) Stiffening/strengthning the cross section, much like a I Beam . Wonder how old is the Khanda and if it's faulad/damascus.

The second one from top (I hope I have learnt this right from Katanaji :D ) appears to be a kindi or a straight sword.

I had seen this on TV, the use of electrolysis tank for rust removal on very old weapons. Read this link. I wonder if this setup can actually be tried

http://www.djkwoodcrafts.com/2009/07/15 ... ctrolysis/


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Last edited by Moin. on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by Moin. » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:06 am

Katanaji, in the pic second from below, the katori on the muth (the one in the centre) is actually bowl shaped(can't think of a better word) rather than being flat. Is this common. This would be specific to blades/hilts from which region/belt ?

The Kotori is like an Afghan Pulwar (pic below) but the Quillions or the guard is very different.

Image

Also the blade seems more slender than the other ones and the curve on it more pronounced like a Shamshir ? Am I right in guessing so ?

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Last edited by Moin. on Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by Moin. » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:13 am

Katanaji, would I be right in guessing this to be a kindi,(First pic, second from top) although in the pic the blade seems to curve and flare very slightly towards the tip like a Yelman point on a kilij or a Yataghan but subtle ?

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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by only32owner » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:10 am

Moin. wrote:Wow, have these been pulled out of the Titanic :mrgreen:

Moin.
No doubt, these swords, have seen years and years of submergence.
Good that, they are with someone who wants to give them life once again.
My best wishes to you MR. OP.

Regards.

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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by only32owner » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:19 am

ramtiger wrote:This swords need licence or not ?
Hi Ram,
with my limited knowledge, that also from IFG,
at present these are only few rusted piece of metal. Eventhough they look like a sword, there aren't any characteristic
of a sword apart from shape. So no need to bother about license, IMHO.

Regards.

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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by ramtiger » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:51 am

@ only32owner
thank you
After restoring the sword it need licence or not?

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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by rajesh.rajesh » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:10 pm

Thank you Moin, perfectionist1 and only32owner for your response.

I just read the whole thread of "Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasthan." by Moin. A very interesting read, no wonder you were the Poster of the month :). The discussion about the "hilts not letting a comforting grip" was intriguing. I observed the same when I held the two talwars, had to keep the pinky finger out of guard to not hurt my fingers.

I read more about Khanda. Are Khanda and Firangi two names for similar swords ?

And yes, of the two talwars, one has a flat disc pommel, but the other has inverted cup like pommel.

-Rajesh.

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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by goodboy_mentor » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:56 pm

Both the hilt and blades appear heavily rusted, quite a pitting on hilt. I need some guidance / pointers on how to go about with restoring them.
The gentleman using the id katana would be the best person to give an opinion on this matter if restoration is possible or not for swords in such a condition.
Will I be able to reinforce them by electroplating.
I do not think electroplating will be able to reinforce the metal.
That is one reason why I am hesitant to keep them. The length of all the four are certainly more than 9". So they will automatically be classified as weapons. Two of these are atleast 50 yrs old. I am still reading about the arms act for if there are any provisions for antiques/heirlooms and if so how to claim that.
Please read these:
1. http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 00#p157031
2. http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16750 (you may contact Skyman since it appears that he is also from your location and has said will be doing an RTI related to Notifications under Section 4 of Arms Act 1959)
3. http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 02#p158201
Are Khanda and Firangi two names for similar swords ?
No they are different type of swords. If you compare the pictures of both, you will find the difference in appearance.

Firangi sword is usually light and tapering towards the tip. Mainly used for thrusting and stabbing with the tip.

Khanda is usually heavy especially towards the tip. Mainly used to hack or cleave with the edge of the blade.
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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by Moin. » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:18 pm

Rajesh, wait for Katanaji to give you an accurate & educated response :) . The blade has a curvature like a talwar whereas Firangi swords would have a straight rapier type of narrower blade.The blade was imported and fixed to the hilt.Google for Firnagi Swords and you will get tonnes of information.

Here's how a typicla khanda is

Image

Here is what probably is a Firangi with a narrow tapering blade.

Image
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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by Katana » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:09 pm

Gentlemen,

The khanda in question is most likely to have an Indian blade and not necessarily a farangi/ firangi because of the fullering patterns on it. Most farangis were without fullers and were thinner than 'desi' blades. In reality, inferior in quality but cost effective. Sadly the rusting is too pronounced to identify it at this stage. I suspect the hilt is older than the blade.

Swords nos.3 and 4 from top are definitely 'imported' blades although I wouldn't call them farangis. If held straight and shaken the blades would would seem to be loose. These blades were imported in the early British period and many were sold with brass hilts. The ones in the picture have typical Indo-Mughal hilts and looking at what Rajesh has described, I feel that in all cases the hilts were retrofitted to match the standing of original owners. These hilts also show remnant signs of kuftgari or bidri work.

About sword no. 2, it is beyond recognition. All one can say that it is of a much later period. It is not a kindi nor a kopis/ yataghan/ sosun patta type, just a lower quality blade that was much popular in the late 1800's or early 1900s. :)

About the restoration, please send me detailed pics of the blades and I'll see if anyone is willing to take it up. I have 4 sirohi swords of my own, in similar if not worse condition, going for restoration soon.

As far as licences are concerned I have seen just one license belonging to a sakligar with an entry for 30 pieces. But then again that is for his business.

Rajesh, I suggest you talk to your grandfather as to how he acquired these pieces. It might just throw some light on their history like their age. I personally think these could either be from the Deccan or somewhere near the Delhi region.
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Re: Need guidance in restoring these swords

Post by aniketpwr0 » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:50 pm

i required the same MARATHA SWORD.....if you want sell them pls leave your contact information...

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