Indians For Guns

Always been into knives and edged stuff as a user. Trained to be a chef, love the outdoors etc etc. Getting into knives as a collector now. Made my first knife when I was 18 in Manipal. It wasn't too bad. Always loved a good edged weapon/tool. Learned to know the good from the junk too. And I am not holier than thou either. I own a United Cutlery Dagger. But at least its a fixed blade. Lesser parts mean lesser to go wrong. The term for these knives is "tacticool' or "tacticLOL" and people who like them are Mall-Ninja!

And this whole "tactical" thing. WTF is that? All edged tools/weapons are "tactical"! If it has a decent edge it can hurt/kill. The spikes on the spine, the OTT serrations and gimping, the hybrid bowie/tanto/drop point blades! These things are at best useless and worst dangerous to the user. In folders a Byrd Cara Cara 2 FRN or a Scamp/Nerve costs not much more that a S&W, Winchester or any Chinese rip-off POS and will be of far greater use in a self-defense situation. And trust me a shiny blade is far more intimidating that a black painted one. I personally have had someone look at my Eskabar and say "Asli hai kya?". But I consider that a plus.

Both the Byrd & the Kershaw are made in China, so I am not saying Chinese stuff is bad. But buy a knife from a knife company; especially if its a folder you plan on using. Its not a firearms manufacturer's core business. They sell their brand to the highest bidder who then puts it on anything that looks "tactical". And the gun companies don't mind. Guess why! Guns ARE tactical. And nothing else. Knives are many other things. When knives were genuinely used for tactical purposes they never looked anything like the garbage that is peddled in the name of tactical weaponry. If you cant afford the good stuff at least buy a blade shape that you can use for something other than scaring people. Cutting things for example. And a good steel in a well designed knife from a good manufacturer will have far smaller chance of failure should you ever actually be in the unlikely situation where you would absolutely need to whip out your blade and defend yourself. Lets be fair, this is India. You will get in trouble for having and using that knife "tactically" regardless of your justification.

And its not like there is a paucity of educated collectors with good taste on this forum. I see enough Spyderco & Benchmade here not to mention Ka-Bar, SOG, Cold Steel and some serious custom work. Lots of very pretty historical stuff too. They are decent resources in themselves for advice. Much can be learned on the net with some research as well. One need not spend as much as them either. If you can source the S&W and the MTech you can source the decent brands too. All of the above companies have budget product lines, some branded the same and others re-branded.

So reputed manufacturers and not just brand-license holders, in good steels (AUS-8, 8Cr13MoV, 440C).
Budget Lines of some of the more famous manufacturers
Benchmade- Red Class
Boker- Magnum
Spyderco- Byrd
Kershaw - Branded Budget Line
CRKT- Branded Budget Line


I did say it was going to be a rant.............
No offense to anyone.

Actually, "tactical" has/had a real meaning, but the marketing wh@r*s took it too far, and nobody knows what tactical means. Certain knifemakers designed certain knives specifically for use by the US Armed forces (and also were "standard issue"), and a breed of these knives were for very specific purpose. Knives were painted matte-black to reduce "visual signature" of the soldier, and so on. Now every manufacturer who designs a knife that borrows any of these characteristics calls them "tactical".

I agree with you in buying a knife from a knife company, since a knife has a potential of damage, and if you carry a poor quality one, you will cause more damage (a sharp blade is a safe blade). 8Cr13MoV as used on Spyderco Byrd line is reasonable, but the same used on Enlan, Bee, Navy, or SRM (cheap Chinese brands) does not hold an edge well. I would rather save money, and get a Spyderco, Benchmade, SOG, ESEE, Boker, or any good quality brand, than spend on cheap Chinese knives just for the heck of it. Remember, a knife is a "tool", and there is nothing to show-off. If you purchase one for "showing-off" you are a danger to the society, in my opinion.

Also, knife and self-defense do not go well, unless you are trained for hand-to-hand combat. If you feel more secure because you have the knife clipped to your jeans, then you probably should never carry a knife. I highly recommend "Dangerous Mis-conceptions about EDC (knife)". Another fantastic article by Sam Harris "The Truth About Violence".

My 2 paise.

-Amarendra

choombak wrote:
Also, knife and self-defense do not go well, unless you are trained for hand-to-hand combat. If you feel more secure because you have the knife clipped to your jeans, then you probably should never carry a knife. I highly recommend "Dangerous Mis-conceptions about EDC (knife)".

My 2 paise.

-Amarendra

Very useful info there, Amar!

I personally opine that irrespective of the amount of the training received, luck will have a bigger part in deciding the outcome of a knife fight! Especially when it's not exactly a 'tactical' fight. Also, the bad thing about using a knife in self defense is that if you pull it out, you gotta use it and finally it's gonna stick somewhere unlike a Gun!

nice article. Its a fact that when you can avoid the conflict do it.

I personally dont know of any institute which trains in knife fighting to normal citizen it should not be mixed with common martial arts. Knife fighting is different art altogether.

Yes but even proper Soldier Blades don't look like some of the s*** we see up for sale. Their (soldier's) definition of tactical was the clip-point bowie shape in black (USMC KaBar) and recently the American Tanto shape proliferated by Cold Steel. They were meant to penetrate armour. You want to see true modern tactical blades; try Crusader Forge or Shadowtech Knives. They look nothing like the Mall-Ninja garbage I am dissing here. That stuff has a lot more than a penetrating tip and lower visual sig. In fact some of them are overly visible and wouldn't penetrate a watermelon.

In terms of blade steels, my junk UC Dagger says AUS-8 on it. I am sure the chemical composition is indeed AUS-8 but I am also sure the heat treat is non existent. I have heard the 8Cr13MoV on the Byrd Cara Cara is HT'ed to a 61HRC. Might be a little brittle but if used for what a folder is used for, I expect that thing will hold an edge very well. The Knife companies understand heat treatment and annealing and apply it well even on their budget lines.

choombak wrote:Actually, "tactical" has/had a real meaning, but the marketing wh@r*s took it too far, and nobody knows what tactical means. Certain knifemakers designed certain knives specifically for use by the US Armed forces (and also were "standard issue"), and a breed of these knives were for very specific purpose. Knives were painted matte-black to reduce "visual signature" of the soldier, and so on. Now every manufacturer who designs a knife that borrows any of these characteristics calls them "tactical".

I agree with you in buying a knife from a knife company, since a knife has a potential of damage, and if you carry a poor quality one, you will cause more damage (a sharp blade is a safe blade). 8Cr13MoV as used on Spyderco Byrd line is reasonable, but the same used on Enlan, Bee, Navy, or SRM (cheap Chinese brands) does not hold an edge well. I would rather save money, and get a Spyderco, Benchmade, SOG, ESEE, Boker, or any good quality brand, than spend on cheap Chinese knives just for the heck of it. Remember, a knife is a "tool", and there is nothing to show-off. If you purchase one for "showing-off" you are a danger to the society, in my opinion.

Also, knife and self-defense do not go well, unless you are trained for hand-to-hand combat. If you feel more secure because you have the knife clipped to your jeans, then you probably should never carry a knife. I highly recommend "Dangerous Mis-conceptions about EDC (knife)". Another fantastic article by Sam Harris "The Truth About Violence".

My 2 paise.

-Amarendra

I personally think there is really no such thing as a "Knife Fight" unless one is organized. If someone is pulling a knife on you, your are probably getting mugged. Best reaction in that situation is hand over whatever the mugger wants and walk away UN-punctured.

Even for soldiers it's a stealth weapon. Meaning sneak up behind the bad guy and kill him before he can react and that is a very small %age of the utility of a solder blade. They have infinitely better weapons today and the knife is a last resort even for them.

If you do find yourself in such situations and re unable to back out from it, your are probably going to get cut no matter what your training tells you.

Some useful insights on tactical defense can be found on themartialist.com .

"And this whole "tactical" thing. WTF is that? All edged tools/weapons are "tactical"! If it has a decent edge it can hurt/kill. "

Are'nt you contradicting yourself, if it can hurt/kill and has a decent edge then how would it matter if it's a chinese junk blade out of Manish Market or a Custom Chris Reeves knife ? What's with being anal retentive about Aus8, S30V etc etc and how does that even matter if the blade is used for SD purposes. How many of us are in situations where the edge retention, Rockwell Hardness etc would matter ?

Fact of the matter is knifes are very difficult to source in India, not all can afford to spend a few thousand splurging on all things Sharp N Shiny.Even if you have the money sourcing the blades you want is tough enough. whatever is available is good enough. I started off buying these cheap chinese knock off's with whatever I could afford at the time.

If one is passionate about knives how does it matter what steel the knife is made of,or what the rockwell hardness is, what was the heat treatment,or if it's a SOG or a Kabar or a Benchmade or cheap chinese junk knife. If you can afford it or source it fine, if not enjoy what you can.

P.S: keeping a chinese knock off makes one a Mall Ninja and spending a week end at the National Park in Borivali or carrying knife to cut fruit makes one a Survival/Knife expert/Indian Incarnation of Bear Grylls..

P.S:02: No offense meant, just a rant in response to one...

That was the idea. These things wouldn't be fun if everyone agreed. What are we? The UN??? I guess I should have separated the issues.

But I wasn't contradicting myself. My issue is not too much with cheap knives in terms of "tactical" use. A Rs.20 box cutter from a stationery store can be tactical in that it can cut. And flesh is softer than junk steels. What I am "anal retentive" about is the useless and dicey features that make a "tactical" knife. And making that the reason to buy a particular knife. And if you read my second para I do say "If you can't afford the good stuff at least buy a blade shape that you can use for something other than scaring people. Cutting things for example." So its not the Chinese knock off that makes one a Mall Ninja. Buying an overly serrated, over-designed, needlessly pointy piece of metal might. Buying it because its "so f***ing tactical, dude!" definitely does. I quote Amar here "If you feel more secure because you have the knife clipped to your jeans, then you probably should never carry a knife." There are some ridiculously expensive knives that can make you one too. The Miltner Adams Tactical Knives for eg. And IMHO IF I am going to trust a piece of steel with SD, I would rather have a knife that would hold an edge past more than 1 or 2 cuts through denim, leather etc. And its not just the steel. If you are buying a folder of some sort whats the guarantee the pivot wont crack the first time the edge touches something in anger? But the bottom line is tactical utility is 99.99% of the time theoretical. So if you are buying a "tactical" knife like I describe above its probably for the wrong reasons. A USMC KaBAr is a piece of history. The Miltner Adams or Mantis Knife is a piece of S*** even though they are made with super-steels.

And I guess if women can own junk jewellery and diamonds in the same collection, it makes sense that a knife collector can own cheap knives as well as really good ones. I have used that logic to convince my wife that my knife addiction is OK. Because our desire for knives is very similar to their desire for jewellery in that jewellery also holds very little real utility.

So by all means indulge it and buy what you can find/afford.

The next point I wanted to make was that all knives are difficult to source in India. We either buy them online or go to Crawford market. IF you are going to buy online and go through all the hassle anyway, why not a decently made knife in a decent steel for not much more money?

And would you not end up paying near 2K for a S&W Homeland Security POS on ebay or 20North?
Pay 2.5 K and get the Byrd/CRKT/Kershaw/Magnum.

About Bear Grylls. His Discovery Channel contract is done so no more new shows. The guy is a showman! Not to detract from his survival skills but a significant %age of what he does is for TV and ratings. But don't get me wrong, he is an exceptional survivalist. Personally I'd rather be a wannabe Grylls than Mall-Ninja

Raghavachari wrote: Buying an overly serrated, over-designed, needlessly pointy piece of metal might. Buying it because its "so f***ing tactical, dude!" definitely does. I quote Amar here "If you feel more secure because you have the knife clipped to your jeans, then you probably should never carry a knife." There are some ridiculously expensive knives that can make you one too. The Miltner Adams Tactical Knives for eg. And IMHO IF I am going to trust a piece of steel with SD, I would rather have a knife that would hold an edge past more than 1 or 2 cuts through denim, leather etc. And its not just the steel. If you are buying a folder of some sort whats the guarantee the pivot wont crack the first time the edge touches something in anger? But the bottom line is tactical utility is 99.99% of the time theoretical. So if you are buying a "tactical" knife like I describe above its probably for the wrong reasons. A USMC KaBAr is a piece of history. The Miltner Adams or Mantis Knife is a piece of S*** even though they are made with super-steels.

This is making for some very interesting discussion and i hope to learn something as always. And I wish someoneline like Rajat joins in the discussion who owns knives like the ZT and Extrema Ratios ( I. sure collection purposes only, I would'nt think of scracthing a INR 30K+knife ) and knows more about these things that anybody I can think in IFG.

I don't see a reason why you discount the SW knives so much, do you one one or have handled one ? I own 2 SW's and also the Sypderco budget range and The Byrd Cara Cara (gifted to someone) and the CRKT's you mention. How can you be so sure that a SW will fail when required most and not a Benchmade/spyderco budget series blades?

What is that what makes a good tactical blade, I mean what specs would you look for in one. My understanding is tactical would mean knife for fighting/self defence purposes/military etc.
This is again out of curiosity, I neither understand knife fighting nor I am an outdoorsman or use my knifes except a Victorinox very close to my heart 

Bear Grylls’s an ex SAS chap, climbed the Everest at 20 something, is a black belt. Give the guy some credit.

Raghavachari wrote: ...
The next point I wanted to make was that all knives are difficult to source in India. We either buy them online or go to Crawford market. IF you are going to buy online and go through all the hassle anyway, why not a decently made knife in a decent steel for not much more money?

And would you not end up paying near 2K for a S&W Homeland Security POS on ebay or 20North?
Pay 2.5 K and get the Byrd/CRKT/Kershaw/Magnum.

Agree 100%. I always recommend going through that extra hassel, pay good shipping, pay duty, but get the best you can afford. If I have $50 to spend - I'll opt for a Byrd, than opt for eBay (actually flea-bay) garbage. Meanwhile, apart from knifecenter, Howes Knife Shop, and Cutlery Shoppe are two excellent online retailers of knives. Jim Howe actually works with you for optimal shipping charges, and goes out of the way to ensure things are smooth (they are a husband-wife pair).

Raghavachari wrote: About Bear Grylls. His Discovery Channel contract is done so no more new shows. The guy is a showman! Not to detract from his survival skills but a significant %age of what he does is for TV and ratings. But don't get me wrong, he is an exceptional survivalist. Personally I'd rather be a wannabe Grylls than Mall-Ninja

I dunno the fascination with that idiot, but know for sure that all Gerber made BG knives are next-to-junk in terms of use. Damn, I'll actually purchase a fire steel and a whistle separate than having it glued to the fixed blade sheath, and will be more careful as to what "High Carbon Stainless" steel (ouch! you can't have high carbon, and stainless at the same time!) really means if my life depends on it. Apart from marketing, the knives have little to no real and hard use utility. In fact, BG does not carry these, but carries the Bayley knife which has a lead time of 7 yrs. and costs 350 GBP (yes, british pounds) and above. I recommend opt for the ESEE RC-3 or RC-4 if you really want a heavy use fixed blade!

-Amar

Moin. wrote:This is making for some very interesting discussion and i hope to learn something as always. And I wish someoneline like Rajat joins in the discussion who owns knives like the ZT and Extrema Ratios ( I. sure collection purposes only, I would'nt think of scracthing a INR 30K+knife ) and knows more about these things that anybody I can think in IFG.

I don't see a reason why you discount the SW knives so much, do you one one or have handled one ? I own 2 SW's and also the Sypderco budget range and The Byrd Cara Cara (gifted to someone) and the CRKT's you mention. How can you be so sure that a SW will fail when required most and not a Benchmade/spyderco budget series blades?

S&W are good at manufacturing Guns, and that's what they should be ideally doing. Since there is a lot of overlap between guns, knives, flashlights, and other survival tools, most manufacturers end up re-branding cheap stuff as a secondary business. Spyderco and BM are knife companies, and spend a lot of $$ on knife R&D (just like SW spends it on guns). I suspect all SW knives are Chinese, which is why Alibaba/Aliexpress carries a lot of SW stuff. So when my life depends on it, I'll trust a Spyderco/BM (representative examples, there are many good ones), than a SW. Besides, SW stuff is a lot of fantasy stuff as well, not a real utility knife. Anyone who has used a knife, knows how important simplicity in the design is. For fixed blades, I'll opt for ESEE RC-* series, than go for a SW/Gerber/Schrade kind of stuff.

Moin. wrote: What is that what makes a good tactical blade, I mean what specs would you look for in one. My understanding is tactical would mean knife for fighting/self defence purposes/military etc.
This is again out of curiosity, I neither understand knife fighting nor I am an outdoorsman or use my knifes except a Victorinox very close to my heart

Bear Grylls’s an ex SAS chap, climbed the Everest at 20 something, is a black belt. Give the guy some credit.

Victorinox knives were Swiss Army standard issues, and hence are built to last. However, they still use softer steel, because the abuse handled by a SAK should be limited - their beauty is "all-in-one" EDC concept.

Credit given. Just like we respect Ramdevbaba for Yog, but dislike him when he starts meddling in politics, or cancer-cure, BG is disrespected because the Gerber-designed knives are POS.

-Amar

What he said....Amar I mean.

First the brands you mention.
With the caveat that I have never had the good fortune of handling ZT's or ER's, I will comment.

1. ZT is owned by Kershaw. They are over-engineered; NOT over-designed. Made to survive the apocalypse. As close to a fixed blade as a folder can get. Heavier than most similarly sized fixed blades. The Hinderer Designs by ZT are my dream folders along with the Sebenza. They are sold as soldier utility knives and they very effectively fill that niche. The Hinderer's are all Titanium Frame Locks. And the Strider designed pivots are an engineering work of art. So we cannot speak of them in the same breath as lesser knives. They are expensive for a few reasons not the least of which the steels they are made with and Kershaw knows a thing or two about HT.

2. Extrema Ratio Knives, considering their prices are expected to be and are over-engineered. But they are not to my tastes. There is more than a little bit of over-design there. I am sure they will credit themselves in use as well as or better than the ZT's; tactical or otherwise. They better, considering how much one is expected to pay. But their marketing spiel is a bit OTT as would be required when you try to fix something that ain't broke. There is no pressing need to design knives from a clean slate. Which is why manufacturers and makers who claim to do so tend come up with "tacticool" designs. ER actually has a folder that has a pin on a string to fix the blade when its open. And the blade shapes; re-curves have purpose but a notch midway down the edge? I am certain the features that are supposed to perform do so as expected.

3. I have had the misfortune of buying and attempting to use a S&W Extreme Ops Linerlock with an Aluminium handle. Even felt robust when I took it out of the package. But it developed blade play in less than a week. Not much use to speak of; just lots of opening and closing (Bad construction). I couldn't fix the blade play so I accepted it. The first time I tried to cut a notch in a peg the edge rolled (Bad edge holding) making me use a lot more force than necessary. I hit a small knot in the stick and the blade bent at the end of the grind(Bad steel). It bent about 15 Deg to the left and stayed bent. Tried to unbend it with a little block of wood and a hammer and it broke. I also got an MTech Lockback that was actually under Rs.1k on 20North. The lockback developed up-down blade play with just opening and closing or fondling. YMMV but holding a blade that clicks and rattles when its opened rankles! And up-down blade play is usually because the steel used in the locking mechanism hasn't been HT'ed. I gave the MTech to a fellow who used to work for me and threw the S&W in the garbage.

My Scamp which did not cost too much more than the S&W, has been to hell and back with a smile. I am currently making a hiking stick for which I cut a 4.5 inch wide sapling, stripped it, cleaned it of knots and am shaving it into a roughly cylindrical shape before I sand, oil and epoxy. Its Mulberry wood and not very hard but still. All of this with the Scamp and it still cuts like there is no tomorrow. I thus believe that similar KNIFE manufacturers' products would do better than the S&W stuff any day.

I do understand that anecdote is not the singular form of data. So to be politically correct; YMMV!

The tactical issue.

As an urban civilian, I see absolutely no need for an expressly tactical blade. I don't even subscribe to the concept of the Expressly Tactical Knife or know anything significantly practical about knife fighting. Also let's remember the original premise. ALL knives can be tactical! To split your definition; any knife can be a fighting/SD knife but a Military/Soldier Blade is the only tactical knife about which the description tactical can be taken seriously. But in my mind the following would be ideal Soldier Blade features.
a) FIXED BLADE! Always stronger than a folder no matter what the materials or engineering value. Even soldiers will tell you a folder is an easy to carry and access, utility blade but to fight/kill they want a solid piece of steel.
b) Concealment of weaponry is not an issue for a soldier. Stealth IS. So low visual and AURAL Signature. Meaning dark coated blade and NO Velcro or noisy snaps on the sheath. The well engineered "click" when opening a folder is a cool sound but can get an SF operator killed. And SF operators are among the FEW remaining soldiers who find regular tactical use for knives.
c) Blade shape- FULL TANG! For eg. The Spyderco Bill Moran knives are NOT full tang but also are not tactical knives. Needs to be reasonably thick but not chopper thick. It needs to penetrate modern armour. So strong and sharp tip. In the era before complex hi-tech armour the Bowie or re-curved clip point was the gold standard. Post that the Tanto (American and traditional) has seen a lot of application. Having said this a strong drop point or spear point will serve as well. Preferably a slightly less acute edge geometry. 25Deg Inclusive perhaps.
d) Blade material- It needs to be low maintenance and easy to sharpen. Needs to take and hold a robust edge. And stand stress in all dimensions. The coating protects against corrosion too. So a good HT is paramount to ensure a good balance of edge hardness and toughness. But this is true for all knives.
e) Handle- Again robust and grippy. There are multiple options for this. Micarta is the most popular material because it provides a good grip when wet and oily too. The shape of the handle should be ergonomic enough for multiple grip options. People swing between a hammer pommel or a glass breaker/NL impact device. Hammer pommels are OK as long as the knife is a genuine full tang.
f) Sheath- The sheath needs to be secure and silent. Allowing multiple carry options, good noiseless retention and durability.

What say? Any soldiers here want to comment?

A proper (not tourist souvenir) Gurkha Kukri? Traditional multi-use - cuts wood & food, as well as heads.......

essdee1972 wrote:A proper (not tourist souvenir) Gurkha Kukri? Traditional multi-use - cuts wood & food, as well as heads.......

I agree that is a knife that has seen a lot of action, but I also feel the utility for other tasks (than be-headings) will take skill. Certainly more than an ESEE 4 or even a BK-9. There is also the weight issue. The smallest battle Kukris I have seen are over a foot of blade and massively thick. The kukri, kopis etc are from a time before firearms when blades and edged/pointy things were primary weapons. I think the modern soldier would rather carry 2 more clips of ammo and reduce the weight of his blade.

IMHO