Want to import Katana in luggage

[shooter]

Shooter,

Pleasure to reply to your posts once again! Been a long time.

Thanks katanaji, i have written quite a few posts (esp ones that i really urged a lot of people to read; please read my save the tiger one and do the needful) and i am glad you like them. Lot of times they dont get many views and dont stay in the top 10 section so maybe you miss them.

However, let us not decieve ourselves in thinking that they were of inferior craftsmanship. Even after 65 years of the Jap surrender, these blades could just slice a man in two!

Ask the thousands of chinese who alas arent alive to vouch for the fact. What i meant was not the efficasy of the tool but the beauty of the art.

In olden days good steel was a rarity, not today. I was saddened to learn that a good quality suspension leaf spring today is at par with the best and better than most good quality steel used in old swords.

But katanaji, where do you get the hammon of the katana, the jhawar /jauhar of the tulwar?

According to old texts: how to test the quality of a good blade? But it in grass and an animal should come and try to 'mouth it mistaking it to be water.

Just about any Rajput household would have swords, believe me, even today. They are revered and worshipped almost on a daily basis. Gain the trust of a Rajput friend and the treasure will come tumbling out! There are a thousand and one types of steel for various purposes and of varying craftmanship. However, I can't justify where a katana would fit in here. But after years for seeing swords I can just say that the art of sword making peaked in India itself. The Perso-Mughals just refined it. The Japanese and European/ Western edged arms are not a patch on what was made here. The sad part is that there are few patrons of this art and the new generation of swordsmiths would be hard pressed to join their peers.

Well good katanas were GOOD so i cant say. with the rest.

Finally katana ji maybe you would like to read my following post:

http://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=4185

also pasting the following from another post of mine. hope you like it.

indian swords:

rigveds mentions the use of asi. Lord rama in ramayana was considered a good swordsman. Chanakya in his writings divides swords into 3 types:

Nistrimsah
mandalagr
asiyashti

Most historians agree that the original indian sword had a leaf shaped blade; far removed from the famed tulwar or even any sword seen anywhere today.

Alexander brought the roman swords (ala gladiator) to india but they remained popular in todays pakistan and afghanistan.

The khanda and the tegha appear in the first century ad. please note that a khanda is not pointed sharply.
due to limited works on arms, (taxilla was burned down) our knowledge remains sketchy for the next millenia.
but we do know that the swords juggled between the short broad type to slender pointy or curved type depending on geography, timescale kingdoms.

in 12-13 cent we have the following types:

khadug
tegh
lohatti
vaddhali
dodhara
niraasi
patta
katti
gupti

[Katana]

shooter,

You are one of the few people whom I have met (or for that matter whom I still haven't, but would love to) , who knows about Indian swords. It's quite a shame actually because arms in all forms have been so much a part of our heritage and history.

About the hammon-I'm not sure what you mean, frankly because I myself don't know what it means. Would apprecaite if you could enlighten me. As far as the reproduction katana is concerned, I just had the whole thing copied, including all the brass parts, which the sakligar first die cast them and finished them with a little bit of engraving, something like kuftgari minus the silver or gold filling.

You are right about the khanda. It was much straight, heavy and two sided. My father last had one made in 1982 by a master swordsmith in Udaipur. Its about 3.5 - 4 ft in length, 4 in. wide and weighs a ton! The sakligar had engraved the nav durgas(nine forms of kali) on both the sides. There is no ornamentation but it is a sight to behold. Father does his everyday puja on that.

Coming back to the point, the talwar as we know it today is a manifestation of history and the need for a lighter weapon to be used by Perso-Mughals and the Rajputs. Therefore the curve to slash and not hack or insert into a body like a khanda. The history and mechanics of sword making are just too vast and immense for me to put down here but should you smuggle me out to your place I could give you a lot of gyaan, alongwith your inputs from the Imperial War Museum etc. I know, because I once spent a month in London just going to musuems . Moreover, I had once been to the India House archives, in the basement, to check on some info through documents about my family and I was amazed at the kind of documents they had concerning just about anything, from arms to revenue to treaties and so forth.

As far as testing blades is concerned, the truth is in using it. Sword fighting is an art in itself. Only a person who handles it will be able to tell you it's worth. Moreover, India, unlike other areas has seen the development of so many types of edged weapons that the art of swordfighting differs from place to place and the type of weapon. For example, you must have seen Kallari, the Kerela form, with flexible blades? Now the Rajput warriors had a similar thing, called the kindi. It could be rolled up and concealed in clothing and the moment it was taken out, it would spring up to its original shape! CCW of the olden days!

[kanwar76]

Hi katana ji,

Can you please post some pics of the Katana's and your swords.

-Inder

[kanwar76]

Here are some pics of Katana's Indian made Katana and Rapier sword.






-Inder

[shooter]

Dear Katana ji sorry for the late reply.

The hammon/hamon is the edge of the japanese blade where the layers/types of ssteel meet and this is considered the beauty of the sword. This was created by the application of different thickness of clay to the sowrd resulting in different rates of cooling while quenching the sword. (thin layer insulates less and cools faster and vice versa for thicker layer.

This is an art of the highest form and though today's factory reproductions do make an artificial hamon by grinding/etching techniques, any person with a decent knowledge can spot the difference.

The japanese raised sword making to a combination of science-art-spirituality ; just to give you an idea they have a classification and dozens of individual names for the possible types of defects that in a blade, let alone types of blades and how to make them.

There are a few videos available. if members are interested, i can post them.

The jauhar in an indian blade is similar. Today most factory ones have an artificial jauhar which is exaggerated. As i said due to modern tech. the steel today is of great quality and doesnt need to undergo tempering etc treatments like theolden times anyways.
The good thingabout Japan is that despits this, they recognise the heritage of a katana and thus they have preserved the technology.

This is despite the fact that probably Japan was the first country in the world t have an 'arms control' sort of policy (even centuries ago.)

can you please send pics of close up-of the blade?

[Katana]

Shooter,

The blade for this was just normal steel that the maker tempered twice. Just folded it over once and tempered it. And then ground it into shape. Of course, it is nowhere near what you have explained. However, the process that you explained is quite similar to the one that was employed by the Sirohi(Rajasthan) swordsmiths. Unfortunately, only one family with this knowledge survives, and they are not making such swords under normal circumstances unless you commision one from them specifically.

Another similar technique is the leheriya talwar, where two types of metal are welded, through tempering, in a chevron pattern. Again only one family practising art in Udaipur.




katana

[dev]

Beauty of a Katana but is the ring on the scabbard normal? Seems to be all right though, strangely enough some form or the other of the Katana keeps springing up all over the country. Saw one made in Arunachal some weeks ago, the scabbard and all looked great but the blade didn't have an edge to it. Messers Sword Mart at Rourkee make katanas for export. One can go through their web page but procuring one is an almost impossible task.

[sanjooraam]

you can keep a katana in India but dont have it sharp edged. I mean a sword is not considered a weapon if its edge is blunt. There are no Govt rules for keeping a steel Strip with a handle attached to it. Moreover in Indian constitution all the citizens are treated as same, why only sikhs are allowed to keep a sword and not others were our forefathers any less then theirs? did they not contribute for the growth and prosperity of this country? I have respect for sikhs but the law of country should not see others as less citizens.

[Subal das]

found recently


any one have seen their knives in life - nvsikligar.com

[biking3819]

Interesting thread!
thanks for so much of info on the katana!
I had just come back from a long visit to the far east ,i was fortunate enough to visit some places where they made katana for 8 generation in their family ,its still made vey religiously was my observtion by some families.
Although steel quality in the open market has improved in the modern times, but it seems that these guys still melt there selected ore in home foundary and have own composition before they fold the blade.Each and every part of a katana was a pleasure to watch been made ,specially the way the gripwas tied and the 20-30 river stones required for getting edge and shine on the blade.
I also had the opportunity to learn the 18 steps or SIPPALKI of using the katana in a buddhist monastery for 2 weeks , and found a lot of interesting facts of a katana.

regards sanjiv

[Katana]

Subal,

The blade in the pic is damascened, also called 'sakela' in Hindi/ Gujarati. This is obtained through a heating and quenching process, again, called 'paani chadana'. This is typical of the Mughal-Rajput edged weapons but not so in the Japanese technique of sword making. Also one should be careful while buying a 'sakela' weapon because the damascus finish hides all traces of tempering and one may not know to what degree the weapon has been tempered or not. This process forms what is known as 'rosettes', lovely patterns,but one just has to have a keen eye. The idea in real 'faulad' steel is to remove all traces of cementite and pearlite and get a steel high in carbon content, thereby making it light, unbreakable yet flexible,and the master of this process was apparently a guy called Qulb Ali, master swordsmith to Akbar in the Agra arsenal. Swords made by him stand out even today and are so highly prized that some people will go to absurd lenghts to acquire one.

Katana

[Subal das]

thanks ... that is very interesting

katana on kanwar's picture looks like well finished and good quality, I have video about how katanas made in japan, if someone want I can share, I'm sure that can be made in India in same way too.

[Katana]

Subal,

The pictures of swords posted by kanwar are the ones that I had made. Unfortunately, I'm not that tech savvy, so mailed Ithem to him and he uploaded them here. Surprisingly, the attempt at reproducing them was successful. In fact, these photos don't do much justice to them. They are much better in the hand!

Katana

[Subal das]

Subal,

The pictures of swords posted by kanwar are the ones that I had made. Unfortunately, I'm not that tech savvy, so mailed Ithem to him and he uploaded them here. Surprisingly, the attempt at reproducing them was successful. In fact, these photos don't do much justice to them. They are much better in the hand!

Katana

respect

that is very fine work, one day when i may become a rich i will place an order with you

[Katana]

The last of the lot of 5 that the swordsmith made, has been picked up by a fellow IFG member just yesterday! You would be surprised at the cost though. It's fairly affordable.