Hunting Abroad

[prashantsingh]

Hi Ali. Yes I have taken some snaps of the dentition of the animals I shot. It is quite interesting. In antelopes the upper incisors are missing. There is a thick gum pad in place of the missing teeth . The lower incisors are present. This helps the antelope to bite deeper into small tender grass .
Sudesh . The African wilderness is just amazing. I personally feel that India also has a rich collection of flora and fauna . Probably as rich as Africa . The only problem here is that we have not preserved it as well as we should. We have all the rules but the implementation unfortunately is not up the mark.
Getting the trophies was as difficult a task as the hunt itself. There is too much paper work involved. I will tell you about it in detail soon.

[sudesh]

Waiting.............


Regards
S.........

[Anand]

Welcome Doc,
You will find a lot of good information here and hope that you contribute and enrich this forum as well. Quite a few of us are very interested in hunting in Africa and are very curious regarding the complexities of exporting our firearms for such hunts and then importing the hunted trophies. Please go into as much detail as you can, we wont get bored
Regards,
Anand

[prashantsingh]

Sorry to keep you all waiting. I was taking a little time to get used to IFG. and in the process harassing my old friend "shooters" with stupid questions. Now i am getting a hang of things.
Firstly Where does one hunt? The answer is obvious . Countries where hunting is legal.e.g You can hunt almost all African animals .From birds , to plain game to the Big 5 . The Big 5 (dangerous game) includes the Elephant, Lion, Buffalo, Rhino and Leopard. A word of caution here. Every year a number of professional hunters and shikari clients are killed in Africa during hunts.
There is also a very interesting concept which has come in now. It's called "Green hunting". So if one really doesn't want to kill all you do is replace a dart with the bullet and traquilize the animal. Take some snaps and impressions and make artificial trophies.
Private Game reserves in U.S.A. and Australia also offer certain Indian antelopes (Blackbuck, Neelgai) and Deer (Sambhar) apart from the animals found on their own continent. interestingly these animals were taken by the British and have thrived there.

-- Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:29 pm --

Booking a hunt in Africa is not a problem. The best way to go about it is through an agent who will arrange for everything. Getting the trophies back into India is a major headace.
I personally feel that the Govt. should relax the laws so that anyone who has an interest in wildlife can persue "hunting" as a sport.
before planning a hunt you need clearence from
1.Ministry of Forests and Environment.
2.Ministry of Foreign Trade. (Hunting trophies are a "restricted" item of Trade)
3.Customs
4.Quarentine
and 5.Chief Wildlife Warden of your state.
The animals to be hunted should NOT be in the list of animals in the CITES (convention in International Trade in Endangered Species) and should NOT be common to those found in India.
e.g. You can hunt a Lion or a Cheetah legally in some country in Africa.......but you can not import the trophy (both beings animals in the CITES list). Though if you are American you can hunt and take the trophy back to the U.S.
another example is Though you can hunt a Sambhar in Australia or a Leopard in Africa you can not import the trophy into India ....as these animals are also found in India.

-- Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:51 pm --

Believe me the Paper work is not going to be Easy. What I have mentioned are the basic broadlines. The laws are changing and getting strict every year. So before planning a hunt one must update himself with the latest . Last year an old gentleman from England wanted to present a leopard skin to an army establishment where he had spent his early childhood. The leopard had been shot by Jim Corbett and had been gifted to this person's grandfather who was a priest in Nainital. With no children to give the priceless trophy this gentleman decided to send it back to India. All the paperwork was done but the permission to send the trophy was refused over one document (what I feel is a trivial matter). This gentleman had no proof to prove that the leopard had actually been shot by Corbett. The officials told him that he should show Corbett's letter which says something like "I Jim Corbett am gifting a leopard skin to so and so ....etc etc".

-- Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:05 am --

Another interesting thing is that before going for the shoot you have to give a list of all the animals you are going to shoot and the trophies you are going to get. Even the greatest hunters in world can not give a specific list. Can you "shooters" give me a list of how many pheasants , rabbits or ducks you will shoot on a given day? It's impossible. Because of the simple reason that when you go into the jungle you do not know what you will get. Unfortunately people in A/C offices do not understand that. I gave a list and was fortunate enough to get everything which wason the list......but everyone may not be as lucky. Needless to say that I had to put in extra efforts, walk those extra miles and sweat it out more in the open savanas; so as to complete my list...ha ha ha.
There were two times when I actually felt "fear' like I have never felt ever before in my life. In the open grasslands it is impossible to outrun any animal in the wild. I shall talk about those experiences later. Enough for today. Don't want you guys to get bored.

[shooter]

African lion is different from the asiatic lion. can it not then be imported?

[sudesh]

In the open grasslands it is impossible to outrun any animal in the wild. I shall talk about those experiences later. Enough for today. Don't want you guys to get bored.

Bored NOT AT ALL !

Prashant,

Your post is very informative.
Waiting to read your grassland experience.
Do post some pics as well.



S.................

[prashantsingh]

African Lion is different from Indian. So is their Rhino (the African Rhino having two horns instead of one) . The Canadian Bear is very different from the ones found in India (sloth and Himalayan Black ) .Yet in the eyes of our Govt. a Bear is a bear, a lion a lion , a rhino a rhino etc......Their thinking (of what I can understand) unfortunately does not go beyond what is written in the Law Books. I will give you an example . You can shoot a African bush pig (which is similar to the wild boar in India) or a Wart Hog (which looks nothing like any other pig in the world).....Yet you can neither "import a bush pig or a wart hog" because they come under the category of "wild boars".

-- Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:35 pm --

Import of Ivory is also banned. Interestingly wild boar / wart hog teeth also come under ivory. Do you know elephants grow 6 sets of teeth in their lifetime . Humans grow two (milk and permanent). A dentist friend on a visit to Nepal was gifted an elephant molar tooth (which had been shed by the animal ...just like we shed our milk teeth). These teeth are very different from the long "ivory" (incisor) teeth we see. (Basically Hathi ke khane wale daant .....not the dekhane wale).......Yet the custom officers at the airport ceased it. Talking about the "fixed " mindset of our sarkari officials. Abhinav Bindras case is also an example of how rigit our system is.

-- Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:43 pm --

Read "RIGID" not rigit

-- Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:02 pm --

Many years ago there were people who advacted that we should not Ban import of Ivory. The reason they gave was that if you ban import from Africa then the Indian elephant will suffer. The Govt. officials never accepted this. As a result the Indian elephant has suffered. I visit a number of wildlife parks and ranges every year and no longer see those massive Tuskers which I used to see as a kid. The African elephant (male and female) have tusks . In the Asian elephant only the males have tusks.(and mind you some male don't). There are also more elephants in Africa than there are in India. So, what makes sense to ME is to allow (restricted) import of African ivory , If you want to save our own Elephants. WE have all read about Veerappan. He is an ideal example of the "influencial and well connected poacher" who took decades to be terminated......By that time he had caused irrepairable damage to the ecology of the area he lived in.
If the govt. relaxes the laws for the "law abiding and ethical Indian hunter" , I am confident that "poaching" in our jungles will stop.
We will surely NOT have any movie stars and ex-cricket captains "poaching" on our already vulnerable wild animals.

[kanwar76]

African Lion is different from Indian. So is their Rhino (the African Rhino having two horns instead of one) . The Canadian Bear is very different from the ones found in India (sloth and Himalayan Black ) .Yet in the eyes of our Govt. a Bear is a bear, a lion a lion , a rhino a rhino etc......Their thinking (of what I can understand) unfortunately does not go beyond what is written in the Law Books. I will give you an example . You can shoot a African bush pig (which is similar to the wild boar in India) or a Wart Hog (which looks nothing like any other pig in the world).....Yet you can neither "import a bush pig or a wart hog" because they come under the category of "wild boars".

-- Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:35 pm --

Import of Ivory is also banned. Interestingly wild boar / wart hog teeth also come under ivory. Do you know elephants grow 6 sets of teeth in their lifetime . Humans grow two (milk and permanent). A dentist friend on a visit to Nepal was gifted an elephant molar tooth (which had been shed by the animal ...just like we shed our milk teeth). These teeth are very different from the long "ivory" (incisor) teeth we see. (Basically Hathi ke khane wale daant .....not the dekhane wale).......Yet the custom officers at the airport ceased it. Talking about the "fixed " mindset of our sarkari officials. Abhinav Bindras case is also an example of how rigit our system is.

So if thats the case then we can't import any deer like whitetail also as axis deer is found in INDIA

-Inder

[hvj1]

Every year a number of professional hunters and shikari clients are killed in Africa during hunts.

Exceedingly HAPPY to hear that.
Can we have videos, showing professional hunters and shikari clients getting their due.
I am very serious, I want to make a library of these videos, so that I can watch them, (again and again) with my occasional evening refreshments.

-- Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:58 pm --

Yet in the eyes of our Govt. a Bear is a bear, a lion a lion , a rhino a rhino etc......Their thinking (of what I can understand) unfortunately does not go beyond what is written in the Law Books.

Thats quite understandable, our educational system ensures that rote learning is education, and we make sure that curiosity, spirit of inquiry and lateral thinking, all such outlandish, debilitating and phony concepts which harm the mind are diligantly and systematically expunged from our mind and psyche. So, the babus can only parrot lines from the books, which in the first palce were written by the Brits.

Finally, very interesting articles on wild life, please keep it coming. Would really appreciate some photographs of LIVE animals.
Regards

[prashantsingh]

Dear Kanwar.....The white tail is very different from the Cheetal (Axis). The fawns resemble the Cheetal because of their spots but the adult stags are not at all like the Cheetal. An "ethical" hunter (which our friend hvj1 will not agree with) would never shoot a fawn or a female. He would only go for the male. Even the males horns are very different from that of the Cheetal's.
Dear hvj1......I am very happy to see a true animal lover here. Unfortunately there are no (or few) videos showing professional hunters and shikari clients "getting there due" because of the simple reason that they never LIVED LONG enough to record their deaths.
Reminds me of this joke of a pseudo "Bird lover" who just loved birds......specially when they are cooked in spicy curry.
Jokes apart you will find it interesting to know that more animals (wild) have perished due to loss of habitat than due to hunting. In most countries where hunting is legal a part of the money earned from hunting is put back into conservation.
hvj1 you will probably not agree with me but I feel a hunter also has an important role in our society. I live in a state which has 60% forest cover . Every year a number of leopards in the state turn maneaters and have to be shot.

-- Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:37 pm --

The forest department either terminates them or invites shikari's from other states to do the job.

-- Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:51 pm --

When a leopard kills a human it is declared a maneater. A permit is issued by the D.F.O of the district and is valid for 5 sq kms around the spot where the killing has taken place. Some hunters in the state have shot more than 50 "maneaters" till date.

[hvj1]

Dear Prashantsingh,
It is indeed , sad to know about animals perishing due to dwindling habitat, particularly when I personally cannot do much to rectify it, apart from contributing to WWF.
So when a leopard kills a human being, 5 sq.kms are designated for a certified free for all.
What happens, if a normal leopard is killed by poacher? How many sq. kms are designated? (Now this may offend some highly sensitive souls), if humans choose to occupy the natural habitat of the wild animals, then they must pay the price. I am shortly planning to buy a place in the semi wild areas of Mahabaleshwar, I'll take my chances, any day with the four legged variety.Its the two legged variety. for whom my guns will always be loaded if they trespass with evil intentions. (that is why I am doing my homework, in any case there are plenty of inaccessable ravines....)
The great Billy Arjan SIngh has once said the same thing, I carry my gun, not for the animals, those I know and can handle,its the doubtful two legged ones...
Anyway, I enjoy reading your posts here and you are indeed blessed to be in a state which still has 60% forest cover.
Regards

[Vikram]

Dear Prashantsingh,
It is indeed , sad to know about animals perishing due to dwindling habitat, particularly when I personally cannot do much to rectify it, apart from contributing to WWF.
So when a leopard kills a human being, 5 sq.kms are designated for a certified free for all.
What happens, if a normal leopard is killed by poacher? How many sq. kms are designated? (Now this may offend some highly sensitive souls), if humans choose to occupy the natural habitat of the wild animals, then they must pay the price. I am shortly planning to buy a place in the semi wild areas of Mahabaleshwar, I'll take my chances, any day with the four legged variety.Its the two legged variety. for whom my guns will always be loaded if they trespass with evil intentions. (that is why I am doing my homework, in any case there are plenty of inaccessable ravines....)
The great Billy Arjan SIngh has once said the same thing, I carry my gun, not for the animals, those I know and can handle,its the doubtful two legged ones...
Anyway, I enjoy reading your posts here and you are indeed blessed to be in a state which still has 60% forest cover.
Regards

Hvj1,

There are always chances of non- maneaters getting killed by hunters.So, what would you suggest we do? In emotional terms, I place more love in dogs than in humans (I am not a misanthropist- quite the contrary).But, logic dictates that people come first in general.As long as it's not our own or ourselves, it is easy to forgive a man-eater.Heavens forbid,should a leopard lift your dog, you will be sitting up with your guns loaded for it to come back.

Did you use the word "poacher" deliberately in this context?Poaching is killing wildlife illegally.How can we call killing a declared man-eater by authorised hunters poaching?

BTW, I am a member of WWF and did some volunteer work for them and worked on anti-poaching stuff when in India.Are you aware that WWF acknowledges and accepts that sustainable and legal hunting is a part of conservation?

"WWF-South Africa regards hunting as a legitimate conservation management tool and incentive for
conservation, and regularly engages with major game hunting associations to promote ethical hunting and
combat inhumane practices.
We aren’t opposed at all to trophy hunting and wholeheartedly support the proactive, science-based, in-situ
management of plant and animal populations and the sustainable consumptive use of surplus stocks, but
oppose canned hunting where animals are specifically bred for hunting outside of natural systems."

ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/010/aj114e/aj114e06.pdf

I read all Billy Arjan Singh's books and have them at home.Do you know that he used to shoot parakeets with a .22 rifle while on walks in the jungle so that his tigress Tara can have some cleansing exercise to her formidable dentition? Do you like that too? I did not.

I completely understand someone's choice not to hunt and look at it wrong just the way I look at it as something enjoyable. But, at least, our romanticism should not prevent us from approaching the issue of conservation with an objective and scientific perspective.

Best-
Vikram

[prashantsingh]

Billy Arjan Singh ....The grand old man....God bless his soul was a reformed hunter who turned conservationist. He was also rather controversial. He bred a half blood (Royal Bengal and Siberian) zoo born tigress TARA and released her in the wild....thereby "polluting" the gene pool of the tigers in Dudhwa.
He also raised a leopard cub and then released it in the wild.
What happened to the leopard? It had no fear of man and turned maneater. Had to be terminated.
One should avoid to mess around with nature. Experiments are for Laboratories not for the jungles.
In nature ANIMALS can live without MAN but man can not live without animals.
Big cats are not like deer or other herbivores which you can raise in captivity and then release in the wild hoping that they will fend for themselves. They have to be born and brought up in the wild to learn the hunting techniques. Else they will be like the animals we see in the zoo.

[shooter]

more animals (wild) have perished due to loss of habitat than due to hunting.

Now why does this sound familiar?

[eljefe]

HVJ,
300 rabbits a night is common here, as is culling wild horses, cattle,wild donkeys and camels(go figger! ) dogs etc from choppers, the fav rifle being a 223 mini 14 Ruger. that it is ordained by the Govt, for multiple reason is a bit unusual. It is normal to see a 300 wea mag for sale, having done 400-500 rounds! I wonder what /where the owner had a chance to shoot so many rounds from a rifle like a 300Wea. A baad kicker (IMO) like a 378 Wea has 1-2 hundred rounds-and hopefully,the sellers are pretty truthful and accurate... have met many people who are non pro kangaroo hunters, over 1000 'roos!
A part of the argument is- to ensure sustainability!? Am not competent to hold forth on biodiversity and such terms, but agree with some points raised-
dont mess with the gene pool, just because man is supposedly on top of the food chain (supermarket wise!) does not mean anything to the hungry leopard in the Terai,hunting is contributive to sustainability of both-the animal and the hunter and,
ETHICS MATTER.
This will be an interesting thread