Indians For Guns

Dear Friends,

Reading all these stories about leopards and tigers being shot, stoned, ripped apart, prompted me to think whether there is any other alternative for these species to survive.

On enquiring with one of the foremost Tiger Conservation Scientists in India- Dr. Dharmendra Khandal, who has carried out research at Ranthambore, I suggested Tiger farms and other endangered species farms, on the lines of what one has in the U.S. and China.

Dr. Khandal, informed me that there are no less than 10,000 tigers in U.S. alone and at least 35,000 tigers in China. These are farm and to a lesser extent zoo bred animals. Secondly, on my enquiring whether we could integrate these animals in their natural surroundings (sanctuaries), he replied saying that it is not so simple. Previous experiments by Billy Arjan Singh on the same subject was surrounded by controversy. Then there is the story of Elsa the Lioness - Born Free.

I still feel that tiger farms is the way to go, at the very least you can show LIVE tigers to the generations to follow. The reason being that REALISTICALLY expecting wild life dept. to conserve dwindling species, is in my opinion, a losing battle against organised poaching. What with the poacher-politician nexus involved.

Secondly, the dwindling gene pool of these endangered species in the wild, also needs to be factored in. Tiger/endangered species farms will ensure a better gene poll and a sort of insurance for the future.

Looking forward to more informed views on the subject.

Hi,

The web page mentioned below contains a selection of tiger farm images from the Xiongsen Bear and Tiger Mountain village in Guilin, China. Farms like these are selling tiger bone wine and other products, and lobbying for the lifting of a 14-year ban on trade in tiger parts that would re-ignite demand for tiger parts that could jeopardize wild tiger populations.

http://www.savethetigerfund.org/Content ... efault.htm

Also please read the shoking report of Animal Asia Foudation about Xiongsen Bear and Tiger Mountain village..

http://www.animalsasia.org/.../AnimalsA ... sept09.pdf

Readers can post their views....

Regards
Thomas

My answer is NO.
If we have to save the Tiger . We have to save him in the wild......along with his natural habitat.
A tiger in the zoo / circus is very different from that in the wild.
An animal as powerful, magestic and awe inspiring should live free in his jungle and not be confined to a cage/park/zoo.

Like Tipu Sultan once said "Better to live for a day like a tiger than live a 100 years like a dog/siyaar".

No point giving this beautiful beast a dog like existance.

Hi Hemant i would go with Prashant on this one,Tigers as an animal is not for marketing ( Chinese wont really agree with me),Tiger is not a trophy to be mounted on the wall to prove a human's virility,Tiger is Amba,a God/Godess,who has inherited the earth with our forefathers and needs to be respected,like the rest of the flora & fauna,they have a right to be here as much as we do,lets worship nature and respect all her creations,other wise when nature demands respect,its always the top predator who has to pay,remember them dinosaurs,them all gone.
Prashant, dogs are beautiful too boss,siyaar is just as important in nature as the Tiger,they are all a part of natures great scheme of things.

hvj1

I have not participated in the polls coz I don't like any of the three options.

Here is my option.

Acquire a very large area of land, size of a sanctuary and let all of them live in peace in there.....

This land can be funded like equities or shares with no preferential treatment to anyone.

The project can pay for itself in many innovative ways.

Wild idea ??? You bet....

Or let them all go extinct.....

M.

there is a tiger valley in Africa where there is a sanctury for captive bred tigers.

I think some of my friends here who voted 'no' think that 'farmed' means kept in a small cage. Not necessarily.

Captive breeding programmes are more likely to be successful.
I have voted both 'farmed' plus conservation.

This is a pragmatic approach.
Acquiring land and making them living in peace while romantic and utopian, serve no practical purpose.

prashantsingh, while i agree with your idea in spirit, it has little application.

india: 360 people per square mile, only 20% forest cover (as per govt stats.; not counting the daily deforestation carried out).
Population growth rate 1.5%
Population: 1.2 billion
economic growth: 9.4%

60% of population is employed in agriculture. 17 % in industries.
approx 77% of population involved in a profession where wildlife is seen as a nuicance to their growth.

Every year 100 million people are ADDED to our population who will tip the balance AGAINST wildlife.

Please also note that some of my brothers might claim that all farmers arent like that and they promote wildlife. Fair enough. Point taken.

Here comes the india shining tiger economy. The number of people joining the industrial sector has more than doubled and will continue to rise. Now please dont tell me industries are also pro wildlife.

Look at any budget and election agenda:

More highways
more rail lines
more dams
more industries
more mining

etc etc

all mutually exclusive to promoting wildlife.
Its good to hold polls and give opinions but lets not forget we have done this to ourselves.

Option 1 for me.

They'd rather take care of the one's alive now.

Regards

prashantsingh wrote:My answer is NO.
If we have to save the Tiger . We have to save him in the wild......along with his natural habitat.
A tiger in the zoo / circus is very different from that in the wild.
An animal as powerful, magestic and awe inspiring should live free in his jungle and not be confined to a cage/park/zoo.

Like Tipu Sultan once said "Better to live for a day like a tiger than live a 100 years like a dog/siyaar".

No point giving this beautiful beast a dog like existance.

Dear sir,
With respect to all your views and the voting lines
As per the words of Prashant ji,
Now a days in china tiger breeding is one of the business but they use do it on the basis of poultry farming some time they organize the live feeding shows but the beauty lies in originality,the trick of hunting and many other tricks the tiger cub use to learn from his or her mother will not be their with the breed-ed generation this will create hassles again if you think of the survivals.

Just think once-
Tiger is a strategical killer!! this is known to every one but you are going to fed them like day old chicks they will give up the habit of hunting and our next generation will feel ashamed to be called as MERA SHERA or SHER DA PUTTAR.

If you want them to protect then protect them with their natural habitat.

thomasan wrote: The web page mentioned below contains a selection of tiger farm images from the Xiongsen Bear and Tiger Mountain village in Guilin, China. Farms like these are selling tiger bone wine and other products, and lobbying for the lifting of a 14-year ban on trade in tiger parts that would re-ignite demand for tiger parts that could jeopardize wild tiger populations.

http://www.savethetigerfund.org/Content ... efault.htm

Also please read the shoking report of Animal Asia Foudation about Xiongsen Bear and Tiger Mountain village..

http://www.animalsasia.org/.../AnimalsA ... sept09.pdf

Hi Thomas
That is precisely what I wish to avoid, I am not at all in favour of setting up a Tiger Farm for 'cultivation'. I think those who do should themselves be cultivated/harvested. I abhor the idea to the extreme.

prashantsingh wrote:My answer is NO.
If we have to save the Tiger . We have to save him in the wild......along with his natural habitat.
A tiger in the zoo / circus is very different from that in the wild.
An animal as powerful, magestic and awe inspiring should live free in his jungle and not be confined to a cage/park/zoo.

Like Tipu Sultan once said "Better to live for a day like a tiger than live a 100 years like a dog/siyaar".

No point giving this beautiful beast a dog like existance.

Prashant,

Shooter has captured the very essence of the kind of farm I am talking about, a sanctuary within a sanctuary, where animals are bred and efforts are made to integrate them in the wild. I know it is difficult but not impossible.

Let us imagine 20 years down the line, we meet, (two dodering old men), we are downing a single malt and then I remind you of this post - Now there are two scenarios possible then, these are as follows;

1. The miracle has taken place and the Tigers are saved and thriving, though in modest numbers in the wild. And a tiger farm is also also thriving, which (another bloody miracle) has managed to integrate a few farm bred cats into the wild through the dedicated efforts of some young men and women, who happen to be son's and daughters of the following IFGians- Prashant Singh, SHooter, Fantumfan, Thomas, Rajat , M24, Abhrankash and others yet to voice their opinion and off course mine. We are both happy for our youngsters because they can see a magnificent animal in the wild.

2. The only forests that exists are shrubs and wastelands, since most of the forests have been ruined due to excessive logging, mining , agriculture and human population habitats. Sanctuaries are bereft of tigers , leopards. The only tigers and leopards and other exotic animals that remain are on the farms set up by our children. At that point of time, you will say, Thank God we decided to set up these farms as an insurance.

Realistically speaking which scenario would you most likely see in 20 years?

-- Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:27 am --

fantumfan2003 wrote:hvj1

I have not participated in the polls coz I don't like any of the three options.

Here is my option.

Acquire a very large area of land, size of a sanctuary and let all of them live in peace in there.....

This land can be funded like equities or shares with no preferential treatment to anyone.

The project can pay for itself in many innovative ways.

Wild idea ??? You bet....

Or let them all go extinct.....

M.

FF
Not a wild idea, in fact this is what I am alluding to. I know for sure, that I cannot prevent poaching, surely then I could do SOMETHING other than tapping away on this computer, to ensure the animals have a chance.

Thanks Shooter,
You hit the nail on the head.

Regards to all.

-- Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:41 am --

Gentlemen,
There are two things very close to my heart. One is seeing that Tigers and other wild animals do not go extinct and the other is to set up my Foresight Marksmanship Institute for development of shooters in India.

SInce I am working single handed and juggling my time between keeping the hearth fires going and my two passions, it is going to take time as well the Blessings of God to achieve my goals. But this much I can assure myself off, that my waking and sleeping moments are predominantly seized by these two ideas. I am working towards it gradually.....

Regards to all.

here i am with everyone, for TIGER.

There is nothing new in what I am saying now, much has been said above. I would hate to see a Tiger being cage bred but here we are not talking about this and anyway I know that what I would not really like to see is that there are no tigers left in India. It is better that we still have some left in "Safe havens". The same has been clarified above. What has been suggested above is a sort of controlled breeding program where a Tiger might not be as free as he is in the Jungle or in the sanctuary but in smaller (but fairly large) fenced area and may live as close to how it lives naturally. The smaller area is necessary so everything may be monitored closely and the tigers may be protected from poachers etc.

All tigers bred there, over the number the area or the allocated resources support, may be returned to the wild. fauntumfan has pointed in the right direction and it is not so far fetched.

Will this be possible in India that the Govt. allows a person or NGO to carry on such a program? Are there any such examples, may be with other animals? Some information on this will be appreciated. Thanks.

Hi Rajat
Take a look at this, it may have some interesting points which could be adopted for Tiger Farming.

http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/b ... zoos/27506

Hvj,

Exactly! This morning I was thinking along similar lines. It was somewhere in the last year that I was watching the news and I clearly recall that some other zoo in India had put up its animals for adoption and the response was phenomenal. Many individuals and companies had come forward to support the venture.

Correct me if I am wrong and feel free to add your inputs: What I was thinking was that we / team India/ they the officials should prepare a new project (save the tiger) affiliate it with the WWF or some such known international agency, create the necessary global image, create the necessary hype, design a nice logo and set up an auction.

An auction to "sell" off all the tigers at a particular reserve to national as well as international "buyers". The highest bidders "get" the tigers. The tigers stay in the reserve, the bidder get the DNA samples, pug mark pictures or casts and pictures to identify the tiger (by the stripes) that he owns + he should get a quarterly report on his tiger and the proof of its existence + one or twice a year the forest officials locate and actually show the people their tigers on their free trip to the reserve. Plus the companies get to use the logo on their products to prove their contribution in saving the tiger and get some extra sale.

No one would let these tigers, that the Tycoons, celebrities or politicians own, get poached or just disappear. Let the tiger owned by the Sena (in this project) disappear and we have a nation wide Bandh and for a noble cause.

Funny. I do not know. Maybe.

Anyway back to the Haryana Zoo scheme. This is a Govt. scheme applicable on the Govt run Zoos. Will the Govt allow a non Govt project on similar lines or will they do it themselves?

Its time they start thinking along these lines. If the Govt cannot do it they should let others.

Hey Rajat,
What a fabulous concept - An auction! Now who will bell the cat? Our govt chaps are not very much into creative thinking (only when it comes to their own under the table schemes then nobody can beat them). OK How do we go about this, since neither you or me have any access to people that matter. I think your concept should be detailed in a project report. Perhaps somebody as brilliant and innovative as Lalit Modi Just joking (but right now he is quite free isint it?)
Perhaps we can have an IPL like auction, where philum stars attend, rights to the whole show can be sold, hell its brilliant, the more I think about it the better it gets.
Lets run with this and see where it takes us mate?
Anybody wanna second the idea?
Regards

A tiger bread in a farm will loose his killer instincts (like abhrankash has correctly pointed out), which he/she otherwise inherits and learns from it's mother in the wild .
Many years ago a family friend (an IFS officer) who was in-charge of the Lucknow Zoo was sent a tiger which had strayed into a village in Lakhimpur Kheri. The animal had been captured and sent to the zoo. Once in captivity the animal had lost all killer instinct rather early and quite remarkably.The tiger was kept away from humans and not displayed to the zoo visitors . After 6 months in captivity ....The famous "Billy" Arjan Singh suggested that they leave a live bait (goat) inside the enclosure to see if the tiger would make a kill. Basically to check if the animal had any chance of being relocated in the Dudhwa jungles. The result was unbelievable. The tiger was so used to eating dead meat , that he actually ran in the other direction when he saw the goat stand up and bleat. A complete change in behaviour from an apex predator which was hunting wild game only a few months earlier.
What I am trying to point out is that , If we want to see the tiger. The Tiger we all respect. The Wild Tiger. We have to save him in the wild.
Lions ( of Born Free fame) may fare better , simply because of their social behaviour. While lions hunt and live in prides. Tigers are solitary animals and have to fend for themselves.

A farm-bred Tiger would only be a Second Grade replacement.





There may be 10000 tigers in the U.S. or 35000 in China.

But the "LAND OF THE TIGER" will always be INDIA.

Simply because of it's 1400 odd WILD TIGERS roaming free in the Jungles.