This hunting is disgusting

[hvj1]

Dear Vikram,Kanwar 76 , Marksman and other IFGians.
We have all been witness to several media articles published by CAFI, which begin with the dangers posed by illegal firearms and their trafficking. After painting a horrifying picture of the same, in the very same breath, they then extend the logic by sneaking in a few lines in favor of banning all civilian firearms.
Just imagine yourself to be a member of the lay public ( by lay, I mean those who are ambiguous to personal firearms ownership), reading such an article, subconsciously you will be nodding in agreement to all that is said about illegal firearms, to such an extent, that by the time you come to the sneaked in lines on banning all civilian firearms, you will find that 9/10 persons will be subconsciously nodding to this also.
Now all they have to do, is go on publishing real time incidents, of which there are several each month, then quietly sneak in a few lines promoting the concept of a universal ban. Over a period of time, the public will be conditioned to accept the twisted extension of the logic of banning illegal as well as legal firearms. This is the modus operandi, adopted by CAFI and whether you like it or not, you have to hand it to them for their smartness.
Regarding hunting posts, in order to vilify IFG, all they have to do, is take people onto our site, where articles regarding hunting are posted. By using the same modus operandi, they can point out that since IFG promotes such hunting posts, IFG (by extension of the same twisted logic) promotes and encourages ‘impressionable minds’ to take up licensed firearms for hunting, which is banned in India! Why then should IFG not be banned altogether! I agree it may sound far fetched, but give it a very cool thought, gentlemen.

[goodboy_mentor]

I fully agree with hvj1. We should steer clear of controversies that are going to provide masala to the CAFI's devilish logic which indirectly helps criminals. People of average intelligence around the world easily buy the idea of "complete" ban on firearms because it gives them a false sense of security. What they do not realize is, banning firearms only takes away weapons from the hands of law abiding citizens and making the job of criminals much easier, criminals never give up their firearms regardless of any "ban" or "gun control" law. Criminals are called criminals only because they do not respect or follow the law.

On the contrary we should be diverting our energies towards activities that will promote awareness of RKBA among every ignorant and misinformed citizen of this country.

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature, they disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

[Vikram]

HVJ,

Thanks for the reply.Understand your concern.The following all are my personal opinions.

Re CAFI types,somewhere actually I, like all of us here, agree with their agenda about controlling illegal trafficking.What I do not agree with is their approach to legal ownership of guns.Their strategies and approach is quite independent from our actions & inactions.They will continue to do what they want to,irrespective of what we stand for.Portraying all gun ownership in negative light is one such tactic.However, the positive way of reacting to that is to spread positive knowledge about responsible gun ownership.Because they will portray us in negative light, we cannot hide our legally held guns.Similarly, hunting,if it is legally and responsibly conducted, there is no reason to hide it.We will try to spread informed, balanced and scientifically verifiable information about hunting.

For the record, IFG has a Zero tolerance policy towards anything remotely connected to any act,words,or implications of illegal nature and we always dealt such posters with great deal of immediacy and stringency.All the hunting related posts you see are conducted in a legal fashion in countries like Canada,UK,USA etc. and not in IndiaI would raise a toast to the fact that they are able to enjoy a sport they like legally and responsibly without the fear of being branded as criminals and with the satisfaction of being aware that they play a vital role in conservation of wildlife and their habitat. It would be sad to take away that satisfaction of sharing it with us.

I repeat, the antis will do what they want irrespective of what we do and don't.As long as we are within the legal framework,there is no need to give an inch to them.

BTW, I am a member of WWF(World Wildlife Fund),was a member of Blue Cross while I was in India.Fewer things are dearer to me than wildlife conservation.

Best-
Vikram

-- Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:49 pm --

I fully agree with hvj1. We should steer clear of controversies that are going to provide masala to the CAFI's devilish logic which indirectly helps criminals. People of average intelligence around the world easily buy the idea of "complete" ban on firearms because it gives them a false sense of security. What they do not realize is, banning firearms only takes away weapons from the hands of law abiding citizens and making the job of criminals much easier, criminals never give up their firearms regardless of any "ban" or "gun control" law. Criminals are called criminals only because they do not respect or follow the law.

On the contrary we should be diverting our energies towards activities that will promote awareness of RKBA among every ignorant and misinformed citizen of this country.

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature, they disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

GBM,

I agree that we should shun controversies.What I fail to see is how legal and ethical hunting done out of India, is a controversy that can tarnish us.I think we should not be shy or defensive about it as long as it is legal. We do not say we do not own a licensed gun when someone asks us for the fear of upsetting them.
Agree with you about spreading awareness.

Best-
Vikram

[Mark]

I hope everyone realizes this is a propaganda film clip and is promoted by an animal rights group.

I personally have never seen, nor even heard, of this sort of trash.

I am not saying this is what happened, but it would not surprise me if this film was made by one of the people pictured in it, for the express purpose of selling to a rights group looking for controversy.

Anyway, I may be wrong but in my opinion this film is BS and is just some sadistic punks who like torturing animals.

[hvj1]

Dear Vikram, GBM,
Thank you for your post. IFG, without a doubt in my mind, functions with an extremely high degree of ethics and the code of conduct adopted by it is unquestionable. Personally, people like me who object to hunting posts for reasons spelled out earlier, have the simple choice of not reading them at all, this is the course I shall be adopting herinafter. The content, quality and responsibility of what should or should not appear ultimately rests with the IFG Board. But it would be interesting to know, how many nay or aye sayers are there amongst us. Regarding wild life conservation, I shall be posting a new topic shortly.
Regards

[xl_target]

First let me be frank. What the video depicts is not hunting. There is no fair chase involved. It's just slaughter and I tend to agree with Mark's opinion of it.

Re: the concern expressed about what anti's might think; I'll try and keep it really short.
Being afraid of what someone will think or say about you, when you are pursuing a legal activity is rather pointless*. However, being afraid to pursue that legal activity because of what someone will think or say is even more pointless*. (* I was going to use a more un politically-correct word but I'm sure you get my point)

I am never going to be able to make everyone happy so If I were to postpone that (legal) activity because I wanted to satisfy everyone, I would never get anything done.
This could be applied to driving my car, how I dress, what I eat, what church I go to..... you see how silly this is?

[shooter]

I agree with my fellow IFGans this video is not hunting or shooting.
I am a hunter myself and didnt know what other word to use I thought putting hunting as "hunting" but didnt get around to using.
In other videos by this person, he doesnt put hunters in general in a bad light but tjust these people.
This narrator does justify hunting if it involves fair chase.

One can never tell what goes in various parts of the world.
In the past i posted links about canned tiger hunts in spain. But most spanish people arent aware of it. According to national geographic documentries, there were cannded tiger hunts in the US as late as the nineties.

I am a very very pro hunter. and love to hunt. I just wanted to share this video with my friends.
I do agree that this is no more cruel that what would happen to these animals in a slaughter house.

the more i see slaughter houses the more i rely on shooting my own food.

Dear marks man and hvj1,

are you saying youre not in favour of posting hunting pics or just hunting?

In either case, whatever pics members here post are legal and much more ethical/humane/moral than the meat most of us consume.

It is very difficult to compare two eras. Conservation was in its infancy in the early century. Big bags were very common in even the most 'civilised' and 'advanced' nations.
I am not defending them or saying what happened was good; but just that back then it was a done thing.

I still mantain these 'big bags' killed less animals than deforestation yet i find no posts criticising the farmers who chopped down millions of acres of terai forests literally overnight (in ecological terms) so they could lay claim to more farm land. I find no posts criticising the sales and purchase of shitoosh shawls (which is more common is non hunters);

an ex.: the biggest bag in india in 150 years or more of hunting was 4000 ducks shot in bharatpur by lord linlithgow etc. I know of one ex- commercial trapper (I hope the old man is alive as I write this) who trapped wildfowls and sold them. His biggest 'bag' has been 10000 geese. He trapped for a few decades and he wasnt the only one and not even the biggest one. You do the maths.

another eg.: Hundreds of partridges are trapped daily in 2 districts of rajasthan and commercially supplied to ......... whatever. there are so many newspaper reports confirming this. I have not seen any shoot here or anywhere else in the world where hundreds of birds are shot daily, everyday, throughout the year for decades and still happening.

Be realistic. Do your maths. despit ALL your arguments the fact still remains that there were more tigers in those times than today. even if the reason was more personal/selfish than environmental, in practical terms, forests were preserved, game wardens appointed and poaching was rare and severely discouraged. even today many of the national parks were the hunting reserves of the royalty. else our "palat culture" would not even leave intact even those few acres of forest that survive today.

Out of sight out of mind. lets not think of all this blame the hunters, blame them who contribute far more to the conservation than these non hunters ever will.

Moderators will you please start a section called "armchair conservation" .
We can have posts like:

'hunters destroy forests',
'hunters are cruel'
'dont hunt, eat commercially reared meat'
' destroy rainforest to develop grazingland for the commercial meat animals'
'hormone and pesticide ridden meat good for you'
etc etc

Impresssionable kids indeed. thats when the gun education comes in. while we are at it, please dont let your kids watch any movie hindi/english most movies have a shooting scene. god forbid if they take their airguns and start shooting people.

[hvj1]

The other question that needs to be asked of hunters is "what is the sane, sensible, civilised number of kills in a hunt", even when licences are issued to keep animal population in check what should be the number of kills that satisfy the sportsman ? We've seen photographs of erstwhile Maharajas with more dead tigers than men - and that too on a single hunting day. One such royalty from the Central Province had the distinction of killing the last known specimens of a certain cheetah species to a round of applause. I cannot appreciate the mindless display of birds and even fishes that people bring to tragic end in numbers more than they or their friends can consume. Hence the question once again - how much can pass off as game , as a hobby. Love of gore is not the quality of the sportsman and any display of the same should be ignored (..one can do little in these times of tempestuous minds).

An excellent point Goldfinger! How much is enough? As a hunter you want to shoot for the pot? Or prove your marksmanship skills by shooting more than necessary? Believe me its more difficult to shoot 10s after 10s in any ISSF event, why? You may ask, Where's the sport? Try doing it, one soon realizes that the though the target may be stationary, the challenge lies within YOU? If you love shooting grouse or pheasant, try your hand at Trap or skeet. Challenge YOURSELF? Shoot as many birds(clays) as you want?

[hamiclar01]

An excellent point Goldfinger! How much is enough? As a hunter you want to shoot for the pot? Or prove your marksmanship skills by shooting more than necessary? Believe me its more difficult to shoot 10s after 10s in any ISSF event, why? You may ask, Where's the sport? Try doing it, one soon realizes that the though the target may be stationary, the challenge lies within YOU? If you love shooting grouse or pheasant, try your hand at Trap or skeet. Challenge YOURSELF? Shoot as many birds(clays) as you want?

i. I have to say i've never really come across a hunter who is doing it to prove his/her marksmanship, which is interesting, since they are all good shots.....in fact they consume far less cartridges/shells per year since they often don't have the luxury of a second try. If you think shooting 10s in an indoor range sheltered from the elements, wearing a monkey suit with your body in a position your coach has told you is perfect is challenging, good for you. My vote would go to a perfectly placed shot..... half crouching in fading light, judging distance and wind, in bitter cold or rain, craning your neck to get the angle right, while making sure the backstop is secure. And may I add that a live pigeon shoot is much more difficult than anything you could think up on a clay field.

ii. Yes, the Maharajahs of yore had huge shoots and bagged umpteen tigers and thousands of birds and that is deplorable. Please come back to the present. None of that is legal any more. Discussing it in today's context is pretty irrelevant. You don't find "Indians and dogs not allowed " plaques in restaurants these days do you?

iii.To club a legalised, (depending on country) past time which generates revenue for conservation (quota driven, if you haven't guessed already) with poaching is armchair rhetoric......or maybe you prefer the Earth to be overgrazed many times over!!! Likewise, bleeding your heart out for all the pigeon shoots and rabbit hunts (to quote an example) just because they are cuddly creatures disregards the agricultural impact of these critters.

iv. Hunting is not legal in India, and we are honest law abiding citizens who will not break the rules. Full stop. But, it not illegal in England, or US, or South Africa, or Germany, for example....So why should we stop discussing hunting abroad, or even participate in it? Just because the antis don't like it? The antis don't like anything we do anyway.

[tirths]

very well said!

[hvj1]

Dear XL_Target, Shooter,Hamiclar01,
Thank you very much for raising your view point, since you are based in USA, London, Cambridge repectively, you all have the good fortune to experience wild life conservation and participate in hunting through valid quotas. Now this may come as a surprise to you, but I have been a hunter myself! My father was Shikar Officer' Gwalior State, so you can imagine the kind of experiences I have had, both hair raising and to the other end of the spectrum, down right gore!So sitting up all night on a machan,duck shoots at dawn and dusk, night drives, hakkas, beats, you name it and I have seen it as a kid first hand. And by the way , I have seen the Best of shooters miss! (Estimating distance in the dark is always dicey).
By the time I came into my own, I was emulating these fellows, with an air gun at the age of 11. One particularly gory day, my Mother caught me emptying out my 'bag'. Several dead birds and squirrels! Too say the least, I ended up in her bag! Late at night, I heard my mother discussing the subject with my father and 'confiscation' of the air gun was being pressed very firmly. Next morning, my father, who incidentally also taught me how to shoot, took me aside and the gist of his soft spoken 'talk' was that we share an equal space with all the creatures on this earth, shoot for the pot, and finally,if I was lucky, there would come a 'point' in my life when I will find personally shooting animals, just as abhorrant as he had.
A series of incidents led me to it The first was when I was accompanying some royalty in a shoot, several rabbits were shot, one was alive and flopping around in the jeep. Somebodywas told to do the needful, having no knife, he decided to breaks its neck and bungled, the wail of that rabbit, almost like a that of a child tore through my heart (still echoes in my ear, to my extreme discomfiture). The next incident took place in a campfire, some guy had brought in the bag, he had used a 30-06 on a pregnant doe, she was still alive, the supposed shikari had hit her high on the shoulder and not bothered any further, her breath came out in rasps, amidst deep shudders. Since our man was too busy lighting a pipe and discussing the next shoot, Somebody equally disgusted like myself, took it upon himself to let her out of her misery, so her throat was slit. With a final gurgle, she slowly went silent, while we stared into the fading glaze in her eyes.
That is how I 'crossed over'and it has been over twenty years, I have had no inclination to 'hunt' any further. Thats about the time i switched over to target shooting. I found it to be very satisfying and personally more challenging. That is my view,
Just two months ago, a young man, a national level shooter, hailing from an extremely good family, was caught shooting peahens, it was all over the papers, he was in jail for some time and I am afraid the state shooting association may ban him for life. Since I have been through that phase (impressionable mind), I understand the urges, which probably led to this otherwise upright young man to do something illegal.
Gentlemen, you are based in countries, which to us in India, are the 'haves', you can access the best of weapons, shoot the best of ammo in quantities, hunt in the most organized manner in very well conserved and managed forests, Good for you. In India we are the 'have nots', no access to good weapons, next to impossible to get arms licence, ban on imports, hunting banned, even if you love wild life, that too is being gradually eroded. In short ,on this side of the fence, we have a whole lot of frustration guys, I hope you understand what I am talking!
Finally, we can easily end up in a slanging match here, this happens when both sides are not fully aware of each other viewpoint completely. I respect yours can you not respect mine?

[shooter]

hey yaj i hope your booty in the fifth continent antarctica wasnt a penguin.
U've made no bones about being an animal lover.

Dear hvj . I am an indian too; born and brought up there. I can understand ur frustration why do u think Im here in the UK?

I can understand these disturbing incidences must have had a profound effect on your mind. I mean thats what i do for a living.

as i said again that was a different era. Even jim corbett, the father of conservation "tried every trick in his book" to shoot as many tigers as possible just before he starting conservation. People did good and bad things.
In order to shoot these big bags, the royalty needed to preserve the evosystem sustaining these animals. Im sure you would know, your father being a shikar officer, how do you think we have shivpuri, panna, kanha and bandhavgarh?

As ernest hemingway puts it, its the hunt not the kill.

I always say one of the best days i had while "shooting" was when I just watched 5000 geese flying too high, beautiful sunset, two golden retrievers by my side and not a shot was fired.

I suggest a test give a hunter 100 lions tied to a tree, immunity from law, but he still wont shoot them. Because its not about the kill. Its about the hunt.
If its about marksmanship, give any hunter a distance of 500 m, tie a deer to a tree, will he shoot it to provve his aim? no again. because again as hamiclar said, its not about marksmanship again.

Ok forget tying to a tree; i will GURANTEE a spot you will find a spot deer will be. you can only go there and nowhere else and you will find a deer there guranteed. presenting its broadside to you; will you like such a hunt? no again

ok forget all this. you go for a shikar and you find a deer within 30 seconds standing still at 5 feet from you. will you kill it? no again.

The other day I shot a phesant on the wings. distance 20 yards height 8 feet. I still regret it. The only consolation is it was flying.

What I mean is its not about killing.

All this apart, I hope you have some of your fathers pics to share with us. It has been good knowing you and hope to meet you someday.

[Yaj]

hey yaj i hope your booty in the fifth continent antarctica wasnt a penguin.
U've made no bones about being an animal lover.

It was a curvaceous Russian scientist if you must know So being a gun lover am I to take it that you do the unmentionable with them

I just thought that it was "I'm so sensitive" "Holier than thou" time, so I thought I would share some of the pearls of wisdom that I have earned by the sweat of my brow
But i guess you missed the sarcasm.
Regards,
Yaj.

[hvj1]

As ernest hemingway puts it, its the hunt not the kill.

I always say one of the best days i had while "shooting" was when I just watched 5000 geese flying too high, beautiful sunset, two golden retrievers by my side and not a shot was fired.

Dear Shooter,
Yes, you have struck a chord! Understood the essence of all you have said, will try and locate the sepia photographs lying in a private collection in Gwalior and email the same to you. From your style of writing I get a glimmer of the kind of person you are and yes, the pleasure Sir, will be all mine when we meet in India.
Regards

[Vikram]

HVJ,

I completely understand your reasons and experiences towards hunting.Trust me,if I see anyone behaving that way towards animals, I will be very upset and will let them know in no gentler terms that they are being callous and cruel. My reactions will be similar to yours in terms of feeling bad.One need not be a sporting hunter to be humane towards animal.But, most sporting hunters humane towards the quarry are and in countries where there are codes of ethics in place, people acting that way will be frowned upon and probably penalised etc.

Where we differ is,because some insensitive twerps act in a less than appropriate manner, an entire community should not be measured with the same yardstick and castigated. Place in more enforceable conditions about humane hunting (some may find it mutually exclusive/oxymoron which it is not) and educate hunters.Banning or stopping hunting is,as I keep repeating, is counter productive that unleashes uncontrolled,unethical and criminal practices of poaching.

Positive way of dealing with is, stipulating minimum levels of marksmanship, taking exams about sustainable stewardship of wildlife, game species identification in terms of sex,age etc, seasons they can be hunted in, numbers that can be hunted per person etc.And, make them pay for the privilege of sustainable hunting.I am extremely aware of the Indian scenario and despair a lot over it.But again,a lot of it is due to the inefficient,chaotic and haphazard implementation of the whole business of conservation.

I am a shameless bleeding heart animal lover first and then a hunter next. I believe both can exist within a same person and they have their place.

Finally, we can easily end up in a slanging match here, this happens when both sides are not fully aware of each other viewpoint completely. I respect yours can you not respect mine?

Most of us do believe and respect your sentiments.IFG in fact has a policy of not tolerating any personal attacks on a member for expressing his/her views.Attack the post but not the poster.Anyone who violates the policy will be asked to correct their behaviour or leave.

If I am not asking too much, may I have the privilege of viewing those shikar pics,please?

Thank you for your very thoughtful views.

Best-
Vikram