Transaction Dispute

Risala · Post by **Risala** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:41 pm

Ashar,Danish

I am sure that both of you as gun owners and enthusiasts went in for this transaction with good intent.However after having read this thread & it’s getting murkier by the post,it is evident that both sides are culpable and need to accept responsibility for the failed transaction and the dispute arising out of it.
Danish for not inspecting the gun before making the payment & Ashar for not disclosing the actual condition of the gun,some times pics aren’t enough.

That said I think if there is good intent on part of both parties,then there is always a way out to resolve this matter amicably.

Court’s are not the solution-the only guy’s who benefit there are the lawyers,both of you loose out.You will be both asked to deposit your licences & fire arms till such time the matter is decided in favour of either one of you.

Danish-your fledgling career as an arms dealer/trader/middleman crashes before it even takes off & Ashar your hard work for the MQS and subsequent import takes a back seat till this matter is resolved in the court,your permission to import might just lapse by the time you folks exit the court,if you choose that route.

Guy’s rather than taking potshots at one another,let good intent,reason,& sound judgement prevail in the spirit of gunownership to resolve this matter.

Just my 2 cents,since I know both of you.

shahid · Post by **shahid** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:17 am

Ashar,
All I want to know is a clarity on your good intentions and then this issue will be fine.

I was not aware till this thread came up that you too had gone to Chandigarh along with Danish. Bunty, the taxi driver told me you too were there on that trip.

Now the all important question is - Before putting up the gun for sale on IFG were you aware that the barrels are reblued, restamped, tampered with to increase the chamber lenght ?

Second question - may be you were duped by a delaer in your enthusiasm to acquire a Purdey. Did you buy it from Tahir Arms and did he tell you about repairs made and such major alterations on the Gun ?

HydNawab · Post by **HydNawab** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:29 am

Shahid,

First Question-Reblued Yes.I had informed Danish very clearly that the barrels were reblued and I did not have the original box with it.I had bought the box separately. Restamped, tampered -No.

Second Question- I was not made aware of any alterations to the gun and knowing Tahir Arms well, I dont think there were any otherwise I am 100% sure that they would have let me know.

Ashar

shahid · Post by **shahid** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:41 am

Guru Grumpy Bhai - I fail to understand you as a person. You wish to comment or rather add expert experience on internal Indian issues without being aware of our actual situations.

It is virtually impossible to take a gun out of India and get it repaired unless you are very high and mighty and very well connected besides being very rich.

Where are the best of the weapons today ? Half of the 4000 odd Parlimentarians and Legislators of India today are Criminals and the best of weapons have been acquired by them.

Maharaja of Bharatpore - Bharatpore is close to Delhi. All the good families of Delhi, haryana, UP and Rajasthan are a close knit group and meet regularly in these parts it is about three to four hours driving criss crossing this belt.

Bharatpore has had an impeccable shooting history. Absolutely out of this world.

The present Maharaja - Raja Rao Raghuraaj Singh is a dear friend and a great man.

He takes extreme care of his weapons and has gone to the extreme that he shoots nothing else but english 2 1/2 inch no. 4 or 6 cartridges only in his H & H 12 bore Royal Sidelock. The original owner of this Gun made in 1913 was H H Maharaja Sri Brijendra Singh Ji.

He also has a set of 4 x Purdey 20 bore guns No. 1 to 4 in a beautiful Oak and Leather box. All these guns are 2 3/4 inch chambered and full choked in both barrels. One a days shoot he usually took with him any two and the other two were offered to important guests if thet wanted it.

Among those who took them was the late King of Persia Reza Shah Pehalvi and King Mahendra of Nepal.

Someone who declined the offer was the American Author JD Scott ( Forest in the Night, Jaico Publishing, 1961 ) citing matched pair of Purdey is like Marijuana, once you get used to it you can never shoot with another gun. And I cant afford a matched pair of Purdeys!

The Maharaja had shot 917 ducks on a days shoot in 1930s where the total bag in morning and afternoon session was 4203 ducks.

All this is part of our history and we are proud of it. A person not from this land cannot understand how we cherish it and the sadness that lies in our hearts today.

shahid · Post by **shahid** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:56 am

Ashar
I take your word.
Hoever there are a couple of things here.
A dealer of Tahirs calibre would easily know about restamping and alterations to chamber if any. If he did not inform you of this he is at fault. Has he too become a fast operator like many other Gun dealers of India ?

For all of you before you close the deal on a gun watch for these things.

Look at the gun carefully.
Read the makers name.
Inspect the proof marks
Learn about London, Bimingham proofing and reproofing stamps on guns
learn about choke systems and how english and European markings differ
Feel the gun.
Check its balance
Inspect the stock for damages, alternation
Inspect the barrel from outside for any pitting etc.
Disassemble the gun and look at the chambers. Run your fingers through it.
Run your fingers to check the choke
Look if there's enough metal in the extractors
Check if the ejectors are working fine.
If possible do fire a few cartridges from the gun.
If in doubt take an expert with you to inspect the gun.

Pls post the certificate provided with this Purdey on IFG if you can scan it and post it.

HydNawab · Post by **HydNawab** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:11 pm

I have given the original Purdey certificate along with the weapon.This is copy which I had saved on photobucket.

Post by **kanwar76** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:20 pm

shahid";p="64769 wrote:The present Maharaja - Raja Rao Raghuraaj Singh is a dear friend and a great man.

Present Maharaja:

Are there still maharaja's in INDIA?

shahid";p="64769 wrote: Maharaja of Bharatpore - Bharatpore is close to Delhi. All the good families of Delhi, haryana, UP and Rajasthan are a close knit group and meet regularly in these parts it is about three to four hours driving criss crossing this belt.

Bharatpore has had an impeccable shooting history. Absolutely out of this world.

The present Maharaja - Raja Rao Raghuraaj Singh is a dear friend and a great man.

He takes extreme care of his weapons and has gone to the extreme that he shoots nothing else but english 2 1/2 inch no. 4 or 6 cartridges only in his H & H 12 bore Royal Sidelock. The original owner of this Gun made in 1913 was H H Maharaja Sri Brijendra Singh Ji.

He also has a set of 4 x Purdey 20 bore guns No. 1 to 4 in a beautiful Oak and Leather box. All these guns are 2 3/4 inch chambered and full choked in both barrels. One a days shoot he usually took with him any two and the other two were offered to important guests if thet wanted it.

Among those who took them was the late King of Persia Reza Shah Pehalvi and King Mahendra of Nepal.

Someone who declined the offer was the American Author JD Scott ( Forest in the Night, Jaico Publishing, 1961 ) citing matched pair of Purdey is like Marijuana, once you get used to it you can never shoot with another gun. And I cant afford a matched pair of Purdeys!

The Maharaja had shot 917 ducks on a days shoot in 1930s where the total bag in morning and afternoon session was 4203 ducks.

All this is part of our history and we are proud of it. A person not from this land cannot understand how we cherish it and the sadness that lies in our hearts today.

Can somebody plese enligten me whats the need of all this blabbering in this thread

-Inder

MoA · Post by **MoA** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:30 pm

Should be easy to wiegh and measure the gun/balrrels, and check the chokes.

Somehow I am not sure I give credence to Danish.

hamiclar01 · Post by **hamiclar01** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:58 pm

shahid";p="64769 wrote: Maharaja of Bharatpore - Bharatpore is close to Delhi. All the good families of Delhi, haryana, UP and Rajasthan are a close knit group and meet regularly in these parts it is about three to four hours driving criss crossing this belt.

right........... i don't mingle with this crowd, ergo, i'm not from a good family.

so , none of us delhi darlings are from good families.

Post by **Sakobav** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:00 pm

Lets rein in the reign of the discussion with nonsensical posts its getting weirder - vocabulary of another era - Cawnpore, Bharatpore, Umritsar, Umballa khandaans, HEH, salaams, cliques..good families, good fellas...
This discussion is going off the deep end

msandhu · Post by **msandhu** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:44 pm

It looks like the whole issue is about the authenticity of the barrels of the gun in questions. Can't you guys show this gun to someone who really knows about it and take a third party opinion and then decide whether its original or a fake instead of blaming each other. I am sure you guys do not have bad intentions but it will not hurt to clarify the main point of contention.
Cheers
Mandeep

ai · Post by ai » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:03 pm

shahid";p="64695 wrote:Obviously there is a lot of nonsence going on over here.

Tahir arms is no fake guy. I know him for over 20 years. In 1993 he had a Holland and Holland 12 Bore grade 3 gun for sale for Rs. 50,000. I looked at it and pointed out that the stock is not original, the wood was not Walnut but Indian Sheesham. He admitted and said it is correct hence this lower price.

About 2-3 years back, I had seen a used BSA Superten at this shop. Asking price was 1.1 Lakhs, with a Leopold scope.

Around mid 2008, I saw this gun with Dr. YPS for repairs. Apparently, someone had got conned into buying a piece that was not functional. I'm not sure about the status of the gun, except that it was in for repairs. What I am sure of is that the Leopold scope had been removed before selling, and after agreeing on the sale by Tahir arms!

Just thought would let everyone know.

ai · Post by ai » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:21 pm

shahid";p="64695 wrote:Obviously there is a lot of nonsence going on over here.

there is no need for penpusher Singh Sidhu to jump into the ring and lay accusitions on Punjab dealers without providing sufficient proof here.

Where is he? You mean Penpusher is Mr. Sidhu?

shahid · Post by **shahid** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:48 pm

I di not understand - what was wrong with this BSA Super Ten, pls mention that.

marksman · Post by **marksman** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:10 pm

Heh...heh.. I have seen Tahir Arms people sell an Indian D.B.B.L shotgun with a a cheap 3/4" dia. .22 scope sitting on a drilled rib and sell it to a Paan chewing son of a minister in M'rashtra cabinet. They were shell shocked when I came in while they were delivering the shotgun. I played a thorough gentleman and stood aside. This idiot shouldered the gun while being explained by one of the Tahir sons how to aim with the cross hair. He wore an expression of the Czar, trying out an diamond studded made to order gun. It was very hard to control my laughter till he left and once he left, even the Tahir & sons joined me. The Minister's son had insisted on putting a scope on his shotgun and they gave him a Bespoke shotgun. Well, business is business after all.
In this case of Hydnawab, the gun was bought on "as is" bases I was told. Rest that happened makes a very interesting reading. We all have learnt a lesson.
Cheers!!!
Marksman

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