Indians For Guns

I'm sure you have read about the attack on the congress' leader's convoy.About 50 cars carrying high profile leaders was ambushed and many killed.

An interesting point i noted.The security guards ran out of ammo.According to deccan herald, some apologized for their inability to defend their leaders and shot themselves with the last remaining rounds.Apparently the carried two twenty round magazines, which i suppose means they either had INSAS or FAL rifles.

This begs the question- How much ammo should security guards carry, and also, how much should we carry to avoid running out in a possible SD scenario?

Well, I was under the impression that ammo quota was only for us mortals... I did not know that our security forces guarding the leaders also had ammo quota.....

Skyman wrote:I'm sure you have read about the attack on the congress' leader's convoy.About 50 cars carrying high profile leaders was ambushed and many killed.

An interesting point i noted.The security guards ran out of ammo.According to deccan herald, some apologized for their inability to defend their leaders and shot themselves with the last remaining rounds.Apparently the carried two twenty round magazines, which i suppose means they either had INSAS or FAL rifles.

This begs the question- How much ammo should security guards carry, and also, how much should we carry to avoid running out in a possible SD scenario?

Where did you read that? Can you please post the link?

Indeed a sad day!!
It was a well planned attack. Security personals were grossly outnumbered. There were more than 300 Maoist, all well equipped with automatic rifles compared to few personnel security officers of politicians who were carrying only handguns. Security arrangements were grossly inadequate. Spot was not sanitized by forces. Mahindra Karma who has Z Plus security was accompanied by only 2 vehicles as compared to 6 which is the norm. Few policemen who were carrying SLR complained that their rifle jammed after couple of shots. You can't expect ill equipped, unmotivated, grossly underpaid Security Personnels to behave like Rambo in such situation. It was failure on part of security establishment both on strategic and intelligence front!!

How much ammo should security guards carry, and also, how much should we carry to avoid running out in a possible SD scenario?

Well, Don't know about the security guards but as for civilians it's best to avoid all such situation were one might need to take out the gun..but if its unavoidable..I read somewhere that "carry the amount of ammo that's comfortable for you. There is no right or wrong. If you feel like you can handle any defensive situation with just one reload, more power to you. If you can find a way to carry more comfortably without the ammo weighing you down so much that your pants fall off, do that. It's completely your choice. "

-Nishith

Skyman, please dont be sensationalist.
One security guard shot himself.
One.

Nishith

Here's a link

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/shukl ... u/1121087/

In this situation the security personnel should have been issued hand grenades and LMGS apart from .303 rifles r better weapons .Sidearm revolvers along with enough amno apart from special training in gurrilia warfare and counter operation could have saved many lives .In this situation knowledge of explosive train methods could have been saved many lives.

one have shot himself with last bullet in his rifle according to news.How much ammo is carried by a police guards in terrorst affected area?

That was definitely a very sad day the attack was unfortunate and has left deep scar among people. Before I talk about the ammo issue being raised here I would like to explain elaborately what was the situation and what lead to such a big security failure in which around 30 people have died as I belong to the same state of Chhattisgarh where this all has happened. Firstly I would like to tell that around 30 people who have died in this incident around which 16-18 people were from Congress party around 10-12 comprised of CRPF jawaans and PSOs and around 2-4 were other civilians. Congress is not the ruling party in state it is in opposition hence they are not ministers in state govt so naturally the MLAs from congress do not get as tight cover of security as would the ministers get. The ministers are entitled for full motorcade which includes a pilot vehicle a following vehicle and number of security personnel according to the portfolio of the ministry which the minister holds. Now on this case there were only handful of people who had actually been given security and which limited to only one PSO who generally has a browning hi power or a glock pistol or at the max insas rifle or Ak47. The security given to MlAs and senior political leaders are generally given according to the threat level on their life or the violence prevailing in the constituencies they come from. In this particular case only three political leaders including late Mr. Mahendra Karma were from a very sensitive area which has high presence of armed Naxalites from a very long time and Mr Mahendra Karma definitely not had a Z+ security he had around 4 security officers at the max with him may be a pilot vehicle he definitely moved around in a bulletproof bolero when visiting sensitive areas, he had been attacked in November 2012 in which he was saved because of his bulletproof vehicle.

On that fateful day these leaders along with some fellow party members were returning from a political rally from Sukma to Jagdalpur they were given security of around 16-20 CRPF jawaans along with their regular set of security guards. There has been serious lapses in the security procedures that should have been followed as it has come to known now that the leaders had been advised to avoid using the road instead take chopper from Sukma to Jagdalpur which was not taken seriously might be because threat level has always remained high in those areas, another factor was that generally when the carcade of ministers or political leaders goes through areas which are sensitive with naxalite movements are advised to not follow the vehicles like a rally instead should maintain distance of at least 100 mts from one vehicle to another as the attack style of Naxalites are comprised of landmines and ambush style attacks if the distance is properly maintained between the vehicles then it is easy for other vehicles following or leading to escape which in this case was not followed as a result they were all trapped tires of the vehicles were also targeted and flattened by gunshots.

This very attack started first with a landmine blast which by pictures looks atleast 15 feet in radius the impact on the vehicle was so severe that it flew around 20 feet in air and was thrown away more 20 feets away from the site of blast then they were attacked by around 300 naxalites which comprised of both men and women who fired around close to 3000 rounds at them from both sides of the road which is the classic ambush style now the big question is how much ammo and personnel one would require to counter these kinds of attack, to my understanding I think in ambush like situation to counter the number of personnel should be higher than those attacking as the attacker has upper hand with the surprise element which if we consider this case then probably if the number of security personnel be around 500 then they might have completely countered the attack which would be like moving with a battalion which is technically not possible. I believe to counter a threat to life one should be always cautious, safety and caution should not be exercise but habit but rest I would say is in the hands of almighty

Skyman wrote:I'm sure you have read about the attack on the congress' leader's convoy.About 50 cars carrying high profile leaders was ambushed and many killed.

An interesting point i noted.The security guards ran out of ammo.According to deccan herald, some apologized for their inability to defend their leaders and shot themselves with the last remaining rounds.Apparently the carried two twenty round magazines, which i suppose means they either had INSAS or FAL rifles.

This begs the question- How much ammo should security guards carry, and also, how much should we carry to avoid running out in a possible SD scenario?

There was only one security personnel who was of Mr. Vidya Charan Shukla who said that he was sorry that he could not protect Mr. Shukla and would not let himself be captured alive by the naxalites and thus shot himself with the last remaining bullet

The security guy and driver according to DH, but that is not the point.

the need would be of 2 LMGs mounted on vehicles..and this too is not guaranteed ..the use of IEDs , landmines , grenades by the maoists will make them sitting ducks...so as far as security cover is concerned ..armored vehicles might stand chance..

Ramandeep wrote:That was definitely a very sad day the attack was unfortunate and has left deep scar among people. Before I talk about the ammo issue being raised here I would like to explain elaborately what was the situation and what lead to such a big security failure in which around 30 people have died as I belong to the same state of Chhattisgarh where this all has happened. Firstly I would like to tell that around 30 people who have died in this incident around which 16-18 people were from Congress party around 10-12 comprised of CRPF jawaans and PSOs and around 2-4 were other civilians. Congress is not the ruling party in state it is in opposition hence they are not ministers in state govt so naturally the MLAs from congress do not get as tight cover of security as would the ministers get. The ministers are entitled for full motorcade which includes a pilot vehicle a following vehicle and number of security personnel according to the portfolio of the ministry which the minister holds. Now on this case there were only handful of people who had actually been given security and which limited to only one PSO who generally has a browning hi power or a glock pistol or at the max insas rifle or Ak47. The security given to MlAs and senior political leaders are generally given according to the threat level on their life or the violence prevailing in the constituencies they come from. In this particular case only three political leaders including late Mr. Mahendra Karma were from a very sensitive area which has high presence of armed Naxalites from a very long time and Mr Mahendra Karma definitely not had a Z+ security he had around 4 security officers at the max with him may be a pilot vehicle he definitely moved around in a bulletproof bolero when visiting sensitive areas, he had been attacked in November 2012 in which he was saved because of his bulletproof vehicle.

On that fateful day these leaders along with some fellow party members were returning from a political rally from Sukma to Jagdalpur they were given security of around 16-20 CRPF jawaans along with their regular set of security guards. There has been serious lapses in the security procedures that should have been followed as it has come to known now that the leaders had been advised to avoid using the road instead take chopper from Sukma to Jagdalpur which was not taken seriously might be because threat level has always remained high in those areas, another factor was that generally when the carcade of ministers or political leaders goes through areas which are sensitive with naxalite movements are advised to not follow the vehicles like a rally instead should maintain distance of at least 100 mts from one vehicle to another as the attack style of Naxalites are comprised of landmines and ambush style attacks if the distance is properly maintained between the vehicles then it is easy for other vehicles following or leading to escape which in this case was not followed as a result they were all trapped tires of the vehicles were also targeted and flattened by gunshots.

This very attack started first with a landmine blast which by pictures looks atleast 15 feet in radius the impact on the vehicle was so severe that it flew around 20 feet in air and was thrown away more 20 feets away from the site of blast then they were attacked by around 300 naxalites which comprised of both men and women who fired around close to 3000 rounds at them from both sides of the road which is the classic ambush style now the big question is how much ammo and personnel one would require to counter these kinds of attack, to my understanding I think in ambush like situation to counter the number of personnel should be higher than those attacking as the attacker has upper hand with the surprise element which if we consider this case then probably if the number of security personnel be around 500 then they might have completely countered the attack which would be like moving with a battalion which is technically not possible. I believe to counter a threat to life one should be always cautious, safety and caution should not be exercise but habit but rest I would say is in the hands of almighty

Only good intelligence input, preparedness , training can prevent such attacks...There's no comparison...but look at USA...Its a much bigger country than India...Post 9/11, there are very few incident of intelligence failure/terrorist attack!

-Nishith

Hi skyman asfar iknow no one dared to come out after ied blast and after blast there was a attack with country made weapons by womens at front and covering them by rifles.attack lasted about 90 minutes from blast and moist waited for exost of ammo from securty personel and when emmo was exxosted by psos then they turned to use auto or modern weapons.It is a cllassic ambush in terms of gurrilla warfare but why our our brave soldiers failed is a matter of debate

ashokgodara wrote:Hi skyman asfar iknow no one dared to come out after ied blast and after blast there was a attack with country made weapons by womens at front and covering them by rifles.attack lasted about 90 minutes from blast and moist waited for exost of ammo from securty personel and when emmo was exxosted by psos then they turned to use auto or modern weapons.It is a cllassic ambush in terms of gurrilla warfare but why our our brave soldiers failed is a matter of debate

30-40 against 300....What do you expect them to do?? Act like Mithun da/ Rambo?

-Nishith

You must note, their primary objective was to protect the leaders.If they had to fight by themselves they may have taken to the jungle and regrouped.