Indians For Guns

I came across a very thought provoking read the other day, so I thought I would share it. These are the collected observations and answers to questions of a fella with the interesting handle of "deadmeat". A very apt name as he works in a morgue in a major US city. The problem with many of these cities today is that there is a lot of gang violence. The numbers of recently departed gang-bangers who pay him a daily visit, spell 'job security' for our observant friend. He also appears to be an expert in his field as he has been called to help identify victims at mass gravesites in Bosnia, Tsunami victims in the far east, etc

From personal observation, he talks about the effects of various calibers and their effectiveness in securing the demise of the gentlemen who grace his work table daily. What he says about certain calibers like the .357 Magnum is enlightening. He is also very complimentary of .357 Sig and any caliber that starts with a “4”.

I think that this is a must read for anyone concerned about self defense with a handgun.

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ball ... morgue.htm


There is a caveat: Remember, this is a faceless voice on the Internet ....

I liked the article, very informative but I have few objections, such as his praising of ".357 Sig and other caliber that starts with a 4. Some people ignores that 9x19 Parabellum is the handgun round with most "body count" as it's being used by defense forces of almost every country.
Speaking of .357 sig, if I wanted a 'powerful' round in semi auto, I'd go with 10mm, not a .357 Magnum rip-off.

There is a caveat: Remember, this is a faceless voice on the Internet ....

I was in the SEAL SIX team that took down Osama Bin Laden. My buddy screamed like a grizzly and gunned him down. I have no proof BTW

I agree, he has some definite opinions but Priyan, a 10 mm is a bear to shoot and the guns are generally big and heavy; read hard to carry. The biggest problem is that 10 mm ammo is hard to find and expensive.

You can get .357 Sig in a gun as small as a SIG P239 or a Glock 33 and it is an impressive round. A 2" Smith stubby revolver would handle .357 Mag; not that easy to shoot in them but eminently concealable. Of course, a short barrel reduces the velocity somewhat. However, you can buy .357 magnum ammo at any gun store here.

Keep in mind too that while the 9mm is being used by the armed forces of many countries, it is not their primary weapon. I don't know how much actual combat takes place with sidearms. Keep in mind that armed forces are limited to ball ammo and 9mm ball will probably just go right through a person. Unless you short circuit the nervous system or take out a major part of the vascular system, you won't stop someone. Ball pistol ammo doesn't generally yaw in tissue like some of the main battle rifle rounds do nowadays. Placement is still more important than caliber, I think.

I prefer shooting 9mm to all my other pistols (except .22). For me 9mm is more controllable in rapid shooting than any of the larger calibers.

xl_target wrote:I agree, he has some definite opinions but Priyan, a 10 mm is a bear to shoot and the guns are generally big and heavy; read hard to carry. The biggest problem is that 10 mm ammo is hard to find and expensive.

You can get .357 Sig in a gun as small as a SIG P239 or a Glock 33 and it is an impressive round. A 2" Smith stubby revolver would handle .357 Mag; not that easy to shoot in them but eminently concealable. Of course, a short barrel reduces the velocity somewhat. However, you can buy .357 magnum ammo at any gun store here.

Keep in mind too that while the 9mm is being used by the armed forces of many countries, it is not their primary weapon. I don't know how much actual combat takes place with sidearms. Keep in mind that armed forces are limited to ball ammo and 9mm ball will probably just go right through a person. Unless you short circuit the nervous system or take out a major part of the vascular system, you won't stop someone. Ball pistol ammo doesn't generally yaw in tissue like some of the main battle rifle rounds do nowadays. Placement is still more important than caliber, I think.

I prefer shooting 9mm to all my other pistols (except .22). For me 9mm is more controllable in rapid shooting than any of the larger calibers.

in US military green berets and delta force prefer .45 ACP either a colt 1911 with extended mags or H&K USP 45

the SEALS prefer the 9x19mm.

pistol kills take place at very short ranges of 10m where headshots and failure drills are easy to execute.

boris wrote:
in US military green berets and delta force prefer .45 ACP either a colt 1911 with extended mags or H&K USP 45

the SEALS prefer the 9x19mm.

pistol kills take place at very short ranges of 10m where headshots and failure drills are easy to execute.

These are special forces and not standard combat troops. They are relatively few in number and even for them the pistol is the secondary weapon. They would not go on a mission with pistols only.

xl_target wrote:

boris wrote:
in US military green berets and delta force prefer .45 ACP either a colt 1911 with extended mags or H&K USP 45

the SEALS prefer the 9x19mm.

pistol kills take place at very short ranges of 10m where headshots and failure drills are easy to execute.

These are special forces and not standard combat troops. they are relatively few in number and even for them the pistol is the secondary weapon. They would not go on a mission with pistols only.

yes the main weapon is always the rifle/LMG

for normal infantry depends on the country like US army all soldiers carry the M9,M11 with them whereas in the british army they would only take their rifle.

i am not sure about the indian army though

''again, this is from experience that I've made my calls on what works and what doesn't. I have no use for mouse guns like the .32, although it's a lot better to have a mouse gun than nothing at all.''
.wonder what will we do when confronted with a 9mm,.45 owning a mouse?

first of all i state, i know next to zero abut handguns and in my whole life must have only fired 100 rounds of ammo.
however i would still venture to ask that in many forums while speaking about self defence, people always quote what army/battallion/force etc etc uses what weapon.

because i know a bit more about shooting other firearms and extrapolating the same logic, i ask, is it necessary that just because black cats/sas/isi/fbi/cia/ranveer sena/gabbar singh/mogambo/take your pick use a particular make, does it really make the right weapon for you or me?

forget a closed arm starved nation like india, even if one had choice of ALL the weapons, is it really necessary to choose one just because dirty harry looked cool in it or the seal corp who shot osama use it?

i mean army people have a particular training that makes them able to use that particular gun. ditto for mr lallan kumar chaurasia from azamgarh with his katta. maybe he can wield it better than staff sergent buck connoly of us marines.

and isnt being comfortable with a weapon also have to do a lot with size of hands, strength, mobility etc etc than just plain practice?

i always state that fire a weapon youre comfortable with even if it is a humble .22
a hit with a .22 is much better than a miss with a 600NE.

All the above points were made with my (limited) experience with long guns. or am i missing a point when talking about handguns?

shooter wrote:first of all i state, i know next to zero abut handguns and in my whole life must have only fired 100 rounds of ammo.
however i would still venture to ask that in many forums while speaking about self defence, people always quote what army/battallion/force etc etc uses what weapon.

because i know a bit more about shooting other firearms and extrapolating the same logic, i ask, is it necessary that just because black cats/sas/isi/fbi/cia/ranveer sena/gabbar singh/mogambo/take your pick use a particular make, does it really make the right weapon for you or me?

forget a closed arm starved nation like india, even if one had choice of ALL the weapons, is it really necessary to choose one just because dirty harry looked cool in it or the seal corp who shot osama use it?

i mean army people have a particular training that makes them able to use that particular gun. ditto for mr lallan kumar chaurasia from azamgarh with his katta. maybe he can wield it better than staff sergent buck connoly of us marines.

and isnt being comfortable with a weapon also have to do a lot with size of hands, strength, mobility etc etc than just plain practice?

i always state that fire a weapon youre comfortable with even if it is a humble .22
a hit with a .22 is much better than a miss with a 600NE.

All the above points were made with my (limited) experience with long guns. or am i missing a point when talking about handguns?

with Shooter; there are a lot of those points to be taken into consideration when one is selecting a handgun. I have seen/know a lot of people who just go by the movies, friends or magazine articles to make a decision on what to buy. Just because my best buddy got a Beretta I will also buy one attitude. I am not sure though in the Indian market our friends got a choice for it or have to be contend with what they can find in the market.

Perhaps our friends from across the oceans can better answer this. I was also wondering if the IOF makes sub-compact, compact, full size handguns or is it one size fits all?
For me personally I need a full size frame as I have big hands but when I was out to get a handgun for my wife whose hands are smaller, we bought a Beretta Tomcat( pocket) and the low caliber of .32 ACP (7.65mm) and she loves that as she can shoot it comfortably all day.

Its better to have a gun, any gun, rather than no gun.


[youtube][/youtube]

Thanks a ton for sharing it, Excellent article.

That video show what .22 cal can do, It has being my fav, i would always pick caliber which i can shoot well and fast and specially in Indian context, it would be better to have injured intruder than dead, for the laws are such.

Keep in mind too that while the 9mm is being used by the armed forces of many countries, it is not their primary weapon. I don't know how much actual combat takes place with sidearms.

That's right. It is also my understanding that only a very small percentage of battlefield deaths are attributable to handguns. The choice of handgun is not going to make any measurable difference in a conflict, overall. This may come as a blow to the "old stove society", which gathers in corner stores to discuss and debate such issues, but it is true.

and isnt being comfortable with a weapon also have to do a lot with size of hands, strength, mobility etc etc than just plain practice?

Exactly so. As a matter of fact, when I was much younger and the 1911 was the US military's standard sidearm, the great majority of opinions about it were poor. Because the 1911 is generally favored by people with larger hands, there was a great deal of complaint about not being able to hit anything with a 1911, and about its tremendous recoil. We see the effect today with the plethora of "beavertail" grip safeties, etc, the need for which has never been clear to me.

It is a strange thing that I've noticed about us gun lovers: whatever gun that is in service or for sale on the market, its popularity increases like a dead rock star's once it is removed.

I have seen/know a lot of people who just go by the movies, friends or magazine articles to make a decision on what to buy.

That's how it works. Millions of dollars in advertising budgets and money for product placement in movies can't be wrong!

These are special forces and not standard combat troops. They are relatively few in number and even for them the pistol is the secondary weapon. They would not go on a mission with pistols only.

An important and valid point!

is it necessary that just because black cats/sas/isi/fbi/cia/ranveer sena/gabbar singh/mogambo/take your pick use a particular make, does it really make the right weapon for you or me?

I agree, it isn't necessary, but it's clear that many people make gun purchases because of these factors, however practical or impractical such decisions may be.

Shooter, I agree with pretty much everything you said except for this:

and isnt being comfortable with a weapon also have to do a lot with size of hands, strength, mobility etc etc than just plain practice?

With a handgun, practice counts for more than anything else. Strength, techniques, size don't count for much compared to practice. I remember reading Dick Marcinko's book about the formation of Seal Team Six. Seal team Six was not a very big unit but their ammunition budget expenditure was more than the Marine Corps. They shot so much that they wore out their Beretta M9's, suffering failures with cracked slides, etc so they switched to SIG 226's. When you seem movies of them shooting, they seem to do so with no effort and seemingly no attention to aiming. I've seen movies with SAS guys doing the same thing.
I've also read about some of the combat shooting legends who practice a lot. Some of them say that dry firing consists of a very large amount of their training. When you see someone like Todd Jarrett or Bob Munden shoot, they make it seem so easy but they shoot all the time to keep that skill. If they don't keep that up, those skills will slowly die away. I'm not talking about leisurely aiming and hitting a target, I'm talking about a fast paced combat type shooting.

Check out Todd Jarrett here:
[youtube][/youtube]

Remember, he is hitting everything he is aiming at.

...and here is his incredible El Presidente record:
[youtube][/youtube]
I can watch that one over and over again.

When I used to shoot more regularly, I could snapshoot one inch dots in succession (at 10 meters) all day. Nowadays, I can't come close. A lack of practice and aging eyes make hitting targets difficult. Handgun skills are very perishable.

Bro this is Our collective situation in India is A) you dont get licenses B) you only get 50 rounds per year,C) you get ony one spare mag and that too for 8000/- D) Our IOF ammo cost us an average mid class diwali budget and the wrath of all (most) gun freak's wife

Bro this is Our collective situation in India is A) you dont get licenses B) you only get 50 rounds per year,C) you get ony one spare mag and that too for 8000/- D) Our IOF ammo cost us an average mid class diwali budget and the wrath of all (most) gun freak's wife