Your Concealed Carry and/or Home defense weapon

[eljefe]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/el ... c00059.jpg
pic-top row,extreme right
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/el ... c00058.jpg
standard x - ray

Check out these 2 x-rays and CT's
Shows a young male who was brought in head shot, range of few meters!
The 315 katta DID NOT penetrate and ended up breaking the margin of his orbit.
After removal etc, patient was discharged 2 days later...
Fate?
Best
Axx

[penpusher]

Asif,

Know of a man who is still alive despite standing about a foot from where a Pak shell burst killed two of his colleagues.All he got was a concusion and a life time hearing impairment.Preferable to being blown to smitherins.

Then there is also the case of a lady who killed a terrorist with a brick that she threw at him and his partners, who promptly fled.That does not mean that we sell off our guns and start carrying bricks.

The fact is that even if two people are shot by the same weapon from the same distance and at the same spot,the results are not always the same.Something that you would be able to throw more light on.

The data being bandied around by some so called experts in the USA,to me atleast,is pretty laughable.I am very sure,there are people there who read such reviews and go ahead and buy a weapon in a calibre recommended by these experts,firmly believing that who ever gets shot with the bullet of the weight,calibre and going at the specific velocity rcommended, would drop dead immediately. People don't behave the way statistics would let us believe they do on, being shot.Don't expect a determined attacker to say,"Oh I have been shot by a .45,now I should drop down dead"

On some American forums,there ia lot of discussion on how the American soldiers in Iraq are finding the 9mm to be underpowered as it does not penetrate car windshiels.Tommorrow they would be complaining that their .50 Browning rifles can't stop tanks.'The bigger is better' way of thinking of the Americans.There appears to be a lot less whining in the British army.Somebody should tell the Americans that the 9mm was not designed for that. Some say that the ".45 hits them harder",but I fail to understand how anybody has the time to observe the effect of their bullets while shooting and being shot at


Take care,
penpusher

[eljefe]

Absolutely penpusher!
Are you by any chance talking about my driver? the chaps an ex fauji, invalided out because of a similar injury.He's hard of hearing, lucky, hasnt lost all...
I guess enough and more real life stories exist, to remind us of the terrible damage firearms can inflict on soft skinned animals, contrary to the bullet proof-ed animals which only americans seem to shoot.
The 9 has been a failure for the yanks right from the beginning, when Beretta was chosen over the Glock because of commercial reasons and then the SEALS found the slides breaking on the M9's in actual operations!!
and inspite of all the tosh-spray and pray seems to be the prevalent attitude.Then they had a major problem with the gas chamber design of the M16, lots of fouling, weapon jamming-add a forward bolt assist -the actual problem was because of wrong powder usage!
Eugene Stoner built a great gun, with the specifc intention of using a faster burning UNCOATED powder, which the bureaucrats negated(in all their wisdom, by using the coated powder, leading to calcium carbonate formation and fouling and blockages/stoppages!)The brits seem to be very comfortable with their 9's, using it with murderous intent!
As for the gunwriters, they are but cousins to our media hoopla types, Quote poisoning from the lead bullet may lead to septic shock and death unquote, in the case of our late lamented politician...


As was rightly pointed out earlier, firing the same weapon with same and different loads at varying ranges , MAY give the operator an idea about bullet behaviour -including the 25 bouncing off a plastic jar!
Hard to comment what will be the effect EACH TIME, so we have to run with statistics and generalities.
The varying GSW's i see here, make me post often about the murderous efficiency of these kattas and give me a constant reinforcement about firearm ballistics-While I pray very hard for a Les Bauer FBI HRT model of a 45, I am perfectly comfortable with my ppk/s and will take on any attacker or situation-because i know what i and my weapon are capable of...
The day they declare the 50 BMG ineffectual , will be a sad day-those 12mm's US or Russian, can take the living daylights out of targets they are designed for-Maybe , there will be a new weapon in the US armoury soon- a 577/600 magazine fed full auto rifle?
We better start tooling up for laser pistols at this rate! or better still, declare a moratorium on war and go fishing...
Great reading your posts-call if you are this side of the world-my round.
Best
Axx

[penpusher]

Asif

The 9 has been a failure for the yanks right from the beginning, when Beretta was chosen over the Glock because of commercial reasons and then the SEALS found the slides breaking on the M9's in actual operations!!

That is was a failure of the weapon and not of the calibre.The problem was later sorted out by strengthening some components.There is a 'Brigadier' model for even more strenuous use.Ultimately a pistol is not the primary weapon of a foot soldier.

Maybe the Germans lost the II WW because they used the 9mm and the Americans the .45 ACP

Take care,
penpusher

[mundaire]

Considering the manner in which the local police operates and the way firearms use is viewed by the law and the Judiciary,I am very sure nobody wants to kill an intruder.

If you shoot an intruder in your house, and he dies - you WILL NOT end up in jail!! As per law, you are well within your rights to defend yourself from harm, and so long as you can prove self-defence you should be OK. In the case of an intruder at home, the case for self-defence is even stronger and I personally know of one such incident (in Delhi) where the home owner was not even charged by the police for killing an intruder (she used a knife to deadly effect).

By close range,I mean a foot or so.The fact is that even te best shot in the world waking up suddenly to find an intruder in his room , would have a hard time hitting a target with a handgun.A shotgun is a much better bet.

Sukpreet, by close range I was thinking more in terms of 6-12 feet (in/ across a room), if the target is at a distance of 1 feet, then my dear friend you will be (anyday) much better off with a handgun!

Why you ask? Well, firstly at that range bringing a shotgun or any long gun into play will be difficult without the very real possibility of the attacker snatching the gun or otherwise grabbing the barrel NEGATING your chance to shoot him/ them.

Even if the attacker is too stupid to try and grab your gun barrel (in spite of being close enough to do so safely) - a long gun is going to be unwieldy (at best) in such a close range situation.

Secondly, if you are at around a foot or so distance from your attacker(s), you would have to be especially talented to miss the target!!

I mean ONE FOOT Aw come on, you can practically smell the guy's breath for crying out loud!!!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[penpusher]

Abhijeet,

If you shoot an intruder in your house, and he dies - you WILL NOT end up in jail!!

Yes,if you are lucky enough to get an IO who believes in your version of the story. Inocents have been hanged on trumped up charges too many times for me to believe in this with any degree of certainity.

Sukpreet, by close range I was thinking more in terms of 6-12 feet (in/ across a room), if the target is at a distance of 1 feet, then my dear friend you will be (anyday) much better off with a handgun!

Majority of the gun owners in India would just have a DB/SB 12 ga gun,in all probability an Indian made one at that,that they would be using against any threat.

Majority of the attempted robberies that have ended tragiclly for the house occupants,have been cases in which the person in the house had woken up when the robbers had already entered the house.SO the distace of 1-2 ft.

Secondly, if you are at around a foot or so distance from your attacker(s), you would have to be especially talented to miss the target!!

When the blood is flowing through the viens,stranger things have happened. Missing is a possibility in a darkened room when you have just woken up from deep sleep.Try accquiring a target in a darkened room with just the street light streaming in through the curtains. I have done some night firing and its damned hard hitting a target in the flickering light of a flare let alone in complete dark.If you have the time to switch on a light,no thief is going to stand and infact the first thought would be to flee.We are talking about dealing with robbers/ thieves and not taking on the Taliban/LET/Hizbul-Mujhahideen/Naxals/Maoists or the like.For that you need something short barreled with a banana magzine and capable of going full auto.Get my flow Have not heard of the fellow with the M60

I mean ONE FOOT Aw come on, you can practically smell the guy's breath for crying out loud!!!

I am very sure anybody caught in such a situation would not have tne time to find out if the fellow, he intends to finish off in a most violent manner, brushes his teeth.'Close up confidence' who cares.Waking up I am sure nobody's breath smells of roses either.A suggestion,brush your teeth before the police arrives.Maybe they would be more lenient Having a body in the bedroom is most inconvenient, better the fellow takes off and maybe learn a lesson that would convince him to give up his carrer in crime. I believe I have a more constructive approach to the issue

Take care,
penpusher

[axp817]

Abhijeet,

If you shoot an intruder in your house, and he dies - you WILL NOT end up in jail!!

Yes,if you are lucky enough to get an IO who believes in your version of the story. Inocents have been hanged on trumped up charges too many times for me to believe in this with any degree of certainity.

Way it works here, and the way I would approach this.

- If the intruder is in my house WITHOUT ANY WEAPONS and is caught stealing something and trying to escape, I WILL NOT SHOOT.

If the intruder has a lethal weapon (gun/knife) and is NOT trying to escape and advances towards me or my family members in a threating manner, I WILL SHOOT, TO KILL, even at the cost/risk of going through legal hassles/getting convicted.

-Naren

[mundaire]

Yes,if you are lucky enough to get an IO who believes in your version of the story. Inocents have been hanged on trumped up charges too many times for me to believe in this with any degree of certainity.

Hmm, the police in India isn't above such things.... Point taken

Majority of the gun owners in India would just have a DB/SB 12 ga gun,in all probability an Indian made one at that,that they would be using against any threat.

Majority of the attempted robberies that have ended tragiclly for the house occupants,have been cases in which the person in the house had woken up when the robbers had already entered the house.SO the distace of 1-2 ft.

penpusher, the discussion was about which is a better choice given the hypothetical range of 1 foot, OK now 1-2 feet... The price and/ or difficulty in obtaining a handgun was never part of the discussion. But yes, you are quite right... unfortunately in the Indian scenario, it is often impossible for the average Joe to own a legal licensed handgun.

When the blood is flowing through the viens,stranger things have happened. Missing is a possibility in a darkened room when you have just woken up from deep sleep.Try accquiring a target in a darkened room with just the street light streaming in through the curtains. I have done some night firing and its damned hard hitting a target in the flickering light of a flare let alone in complete dark.If you have the time to switch on a light,no thief is going to stand and infact the first thought would be to flee.We are talking about dealing with robbers/ thieves and not taking on the Taliban/LET/Hizbul-Mujhahideen/Naxals/Maoists or the like.For that you need something short barreled with a banana magzine and capable of going full auto.Get my flow Have not heard of the fellow with the M60

Don't think anyone was talking about taking on sundry terror groups (even though it seems like a very real threat these days ) ... BUT penpusher, at 1-2 feet if you are going to miss with a handgun, you will miss with a shotgun too It is just TOO close for the spread of shot to compensate OK, now picture this - 2 feet means basically the person is at arms length... so as long as you are facing the intruder, he being at arms length you SHOULD be able to hit him - even in the dark

The point I was trying to make about using a shotgun or any long gun for that matter was this - with the intruder at arms lenght it would be damn hard to bring the long gun into play, it would be clumsy to say the least, at worst you could end up with the intruder grabbing your gun from you and shooting you with your own weapon Hence the reccomendation of a handgun for such close ranges. A handgun can be brought into play while being held very close to one's person (relatively) out of reach of the attacker.

I am very sure anybody caught in such a situation would not have tne time to find out if the fellow, he intends to finish off in a most violent manner, brushes his teeth.'Close up confidence' who cares.Waking up I am sure nobody's breath smells of roses either.A suggestion,brush your teeth before the police arrives.Maybe they would be more lenient Having a body in the bedroom is most inconvenient, better the fellow takes off and maybe learn a lesson that would convince him to give up his carrer in crime. I believe I have a more constructive approach to the issue

@ "close up confidence" Not what I meant but funny all the same

Of course all of this presupposes that one is ABLE to get to one's gun at short notice. I am quite sure that 90% (or more) of license holders in India would NOT be able to get to their weapons in time. Most of them store them in hard to reach places, and would in all probability perish inspite of having a firearm not 10 feet from them... their guns could be in Russia for all the good they'll do them

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[penpusher]

Abhijeet,

Of course all of this presupposes that one is ABLE to get to one's gun at short notice. I am quite sure that 90% (or more) of license holders in India would NOT be able to get to their weapons in time. Most of them store them in hard to reach places, and would in all probability perish inspite of having a firearm not 10 feet from them... their guns could be in Russia for all the good they'll do them

Most of the guns that I have bought have rarely been fired but most have surface rust marks on account of having been kept in the clothes almirah. Clothes attract moisture and retain it during monsoons.The licenses almost invariably smell of mothballs. Rifles and shotguns have rust marks in the barrel near the muzzle due to the clothes plug that most people keep in the barrel to keep out dust.Most also came with the ammo bought by the original owner.

For a large no. of people,considering that the price of firearms in some cases appreciates more than real estate,firearms are an investment or too expensive to fire and use on a regular basis.This is discounting the price of ammo in the first place.

The situation is made worse by the poor quality of the guns manufactured by the IOF.People are not fools that they would pay a huge premium on imported arms if the IOF can produce decent stuff.

Take care,
penpusher

[Kshatriya]

penpusher is right.
Even if they have fired there weapons it is mostly at weddings & other similar engagements...at least in North India.Just today,I met this guy who has an IOF 32 ACP & he was telling me that he has never fired at a proper target even though the guys manages to pop almost 200-250 carts per year.
No one I know carries a weapon on himself regularily.
Maybe the trouble would knock before coming.....
The situation is accentuated by the lack of training & practice ranges in cities.Maybe now with Indian shooters shining in the international arena,things would change.
As for me, till then I guess I would be making roundels with chalk/coal & practicing at my farm

[eljefe]

Dont forget the disorientation that is primary- wake up from sleep- a strange noise/feeling what ever.See a scary figure rifling your wardrobe-jump, scream, shout-wake up the wife and kids -all jump up and try to run out, kids underfoot...masked man starts swinging a knife /edged weapon at ANYONE close to him..now ALL try to escape.
Plausible?
Where's the firearm in my post?
same place where 99% of our firearms are: in that safe Almirah.
Would be better off with a staff or kubotan type stick under the bed-every night, look under the bed for the BIG STICK!
Then there is the very real story of a wife returning back to the bedroom from the toilet,only to be SHOT by the husband!
Compounded by more factors like disorientation, fear, adrenaline, toothpaste and "I hope he does'nt find my gun in the same almirah..."
Unless someone's put a supari on you-just turn right around and go back to sleep it's not worth the hassle guys!

Best
Axx

[penpusher]

1.

Would be better off with a staff or kubotan type stick under the bed-every night, look under the bed for the BIG STICK!

2.Stun guns
3.Tasers
4.Pepperspray
5.Cattle prod (just trying to be inovative)
6.Deo spray
7.A BRIGHT flashlight
8.Screwdriver
9.Corkscrew
10.Hammer
11.Chilly powder

Take care,
penpusher

PS-Most prople are killed/injured by what the thieves pick up from the house.Sometimes, it maybe used to gain entry also

[Kshatriya]

Get a Doberman or a Rottweiler.
After it warns you it will help u finish the job too
You'd be surprised how many would-be intruders would be disinclined to enter a house that has a dog on the guard.

[axp817]

Where's the firearm in my post?

Under my bed, loaded and racked, kept in a position to fit my hand as soon as my hand falls on it. But also well concealed as to not let the assailant's eyes fall on it.

Then there is the very real story of a wife returning back to the bedroom from the toilet,only to be SHOT by the husband!

Which is why I don't keep it under my pillow, but under the bed. The gun is in such a place that I could never get to it when I was asleep or not fully awake but easily get to it on regaining my senses.

Also, I am single, and don't have a wife/kids. If I did have family, I would not keep my gun(s) unsecured in my room unless they were (very) well trained to handle them.

And I practice regularly at the range (100+ rounds/wk.) under different lighting conditions, sometimes. Should get a Surefire/Streamlight flashlight for my gun soon, time to put that tactical rail to use.

Regards,
Naren

[axp817]

Discussion on SigForum on a similar issue.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/ ... #708108436