Indians For Guns

Many of you will have heard of the massive Bore calibre Elephant guns but good pictures are hard to find.
Here`s a fine 4-Bore smooth barrel Elephant gun by J&W Tolley that is being offered by Litts at £17,000 :
http://www.litts.co.uk/robins-rack.php
To give some idea of how big the gun actually is, just note that the barrels are 30" long but look like short carbine barrels. The bores are almost 1" in diameter and the four ounce balls correspond to 1750 gr.
Does anyone want to REALLY impress your friends ?

Just to show how huge a 4-Bore is, here`s an article which is headed by a photograph of a 4-Bore double next to a .500/.465.
http://www.cybertorpedo.com/africanhunt ... t01_01.htm

!!!

Grumpy,

That is a very interesting gun. Until now I hadn't seen or even known about a gun having an under-bolt locking mechanism.

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

Grumpy,

There is considerable interest in the big bores and many gunmakers have started building them again, though, typically, American gunmakers like Butch Searcy and Ken Owen have their own monster nitro express versions of these things. A member at the Nitroexpress forums has posted some videos of him shooting his new Ken Owen 4 bore Nitro Express.

I hope that you would not mind my posting a link to this page on the Nitro Express forums. One of the memberws there might just fly to the UK and buy this gun!

Thanks and best wishes,

Mehul

Dodger. in the years between the introduction of the break-barrel breech loader and the almost universal adoption of the top lever a number of different opening systems were used by British gunmakers. The Jones Rotary Underlever as used on this particular gun was quite popular and can be found on many shotguns and .500 BPE double rifles of the period. The gun that you posted photographs of for me under another thread has a `snap forward` underlever - altogether a more elegant and ergonomic method to my thinking. Stephen Grant used sidelever opening on his guns for many years and J.D.Dougalls` `Lockfast` was another form of rotary underlever.....but substantially different from the Jones system. The early Woodward `Automatics` utilised a version of the `snap forward` underlever.
No problem re posting details of the gun on Nitroexpress Mehul - I`m sure that Litts will appreciate the publicity for the gun. As it happens I`d already received an email telling me that you`d posted the link - sometimes the internet seems an incredibly small place. As has been said before, if you fart whilst online the whole world will know about it before the day is out !

Grumpy,

If someone has mailed you already about the gun, then it is likely that it would be sold very soon. Those guys are big bore double addicts - Ken Owen already has three more orders for his 4 bore Nitro Express after the videos were posted there. Butch Searcy has also started taking orders for 4 Bore Nitro at $ 84000 a gun without engraving. The Litts rifle is a real bargain!

Mehul

Does the 84k rifle come with a medic attached for reducing the fractured shoulder?
I saw the video, and after the cackle spree, was scared of the recoil-no suitable adjectives.
Are these shooters normal guys or do they pump iron or something?
I used to be comfortable with Brit heavy doubles -the few times I can recollect a bad recoil day is when i was not in a correct position, but this one is positively scary.
Mehul, have you had any experience with the real big doubles-10/8 bore et al?
Grumpy,
Talking of sidelever opening, I'll try to send you snaps of one of my hospital security guards carrying an Indian made, sidelever 12 single.Surprisingly, some things never seem to go out of fashion.
Best
Axx

I`ve shot a 4-Bore single barrel shotgun that was built by a local guy - a `light` load though - `only` 2 1/2 oz. Recoil was very managable - should be, being a big, heavy gun loaded with black powder. I`ve also shot 10-Bore magnums ( doubles and semi-autos ) with 2 1/4 oz loads and double 8-Bores. Recoil from the 10-Bore mags was pretty stiff but managable ..... I wouldn`t want to shoot one all afternoon though ! The 8-Bores with the same load were easier as the guns were heavier.
Asif, have you heard about the Zabala Canardier 12-Bore magnum ? It has the unique ability to fire both barrels at once......should you be suicidally minded ! That also amounts to 4 oz ( 2 oz per barrel ) .... but from a much lighter gun.
I`ve been looking for a double 8-Bore for almost a couple of years now - they are distinctly thin-on-the-ground ... and flippin` expensive.

Asif,

If you note that the cases from the 4 bore fall back into the rifle with no effort after it is shot, it is clear that the shooter was doing very light loads. That is, perhaps, also the reason why the target was not shown in the video. The round was designed by a Michigan based ballistician Ed Hubel in order to try and get 40,000 ft lbs of muzzle energy from what would become the most powerful civilian legal gun. FYI that is almost 5 times the muzzle energy of the 700 Nitro Express, which, itself, is regarded by many as overkill. Frankly, I think a full load of the kind Ed Hubel designed would have launched the shooter a few feet behind on his backside. Yes, the thing ought to come with an orthopaedic surgeon's consultation thrown in.

The biggest double rifle I have shot was a Rigby 470 in India. The most powerful rifle that I have fired was Mark's younger brother Jonah's 50 BMG. I had posted pictures of it here in the photographs section.

Cheers!

Mehul

Oh please save us from the power junkies ! I don`t see the point in all these ridiculously powerful rounds.....nor in rifles that are so heavy that you have to take body-building courses just to hold them steady. Seems to me that these people have completely lost the plot.

if there was more stuff printed about the bore guns for the very curious gun collectors it will be not the absolut dream of them.
The time beetween 1850 and 1900 is a dark age of big game hunting and like all hidden things it a temtation. I dont think they have magnumitis, maybe some of them, the most will feel the ultimat secret: the 4 bore rifle

they are romantics, I can understand this

Romantics ? 40,000 ft lbs ? Idiots more like !
The `ultimate secret` wasn`t the 4-Bore ( and many of those weren`t rifled ) but the 2-Bore. There`s a narrative about one of the guys that used a 2-Bore in which he says that the gun `spun him round twice` before dumping him on his ar*e every time he fired it. Some of those old boys were as barmy as the 40,000 ft lb wallies !

Grumpy,

I agree with you entirely on this. The vastly less powerful 505 Gibbs was known to have broken shoulder bones and I know of a recent case where a 600 OK did that to the shooter. Why on earth anyone would want a gun that is almost five times as powerful as a 700 Nitro is something that I don't think I'll ever understand.

I do know, however, the reason why many big bores come on resale with the seller's note saying, "as good as new," or "fired less than 20 times."

Mehul

you can call it what you wish: romantic and stipidity are 2 sides of a medal most times.
This guys buy a 4 bore gun not as a result of clearly thinking but for romantic emotions and this gives a cold shower when they fire the treasure first time, like you mention : "fired less than 20 times."

But I dont think that the old bore guns are the same as the new american super magnums. The bore cartridge if loading with blackpowder is not to much, its the most you can do with black powder propellent and for blackpowder nuts like me its the border line where nothing comes about.
With Nitro powder only the sky is the limit and muzzle breaks make surprisingly many cartridges possible today.
With a 4 bore BP gun you have the biggest, all this american toys like 12 ga from hell and similar will never reach this new 14,5x114 russian or 20x110 Oelikon military sniper rifle's now in service again.

As I said, the 2-Bore was a beast as regards recoil - even though black powder was used as the propellant. The 8oz ( 3500 gr/257 gram ) ball was guaranteed to induce massive recoil.