Indians For Guns

When i sold my Jhon Rigby .275 Mauser (7x57mm) then i got a BRNO cal. 6.5x57mm (.256 mauser) full stock, doubble trigger. And from that time i never missed a single target. Its a great weapon i have ever used. If any one have information regarding this toy then please update me. I am attaching few pics of my rifle.

Saw the same rifle in 7x64.Again the condition was mint.Seems to be a good rilfe.But as a replacement for a Rigby

penpusher

Nice looking rifle - Stutzen carbines always look pretty - and Brno are good quality.
I suppose the Rigby made a load of money - enough to fund this rifle with a hefty amount left over ....... but I doubt you`ll ever get another Rigby.
I don`t know too much about the 6.5x57 Mauser except that it is a necked-down version of the 7x57. Availability of ammunition is limited in the UK where the 6.5x55 Swedish is much more popular which is what I have my Steyr Pro-Hunter chambered for. The 6.5x57 makes a little more energy than the Swede. There`s also a rimmed version, the 6.5x57R.......I`ve never even seen a double chambered for that though.

the 6,5x57 R isnt a caliber you will find a double. believe the smallest is the 7x65R for german double rifles but 8x57IRS and 9,3x74R are more common because such double are build for wild boar and the 6,5mm caliber is on the ligth side of an angry boars life
interesting to see .256 Mauser is this use in india for the 6,5x57?never see this designation before.
The 6,5x57 have sometime a bad reputation because lack of accuracy.
this was because the chamber reamers have a to long compression slope but i think this academic.

danish21,

The ZG 47 Brnos are fine rifles and are sought after for building custom rifles on in the US and Canada. They sell for around $ 1200 to 1400 these days over here though they can be bought cheaper in Europe. Johan who is a member here has six of them and he also gets his custom rifles built exclusively on these actions.

PWM,

The inch designation for the 6.5mm was always .256 with the British. The Mannlicher 6.5 was also sold as the rimless or flanged (their term for rimmed) .256 in India and the designation must have also been used for the 6.5x57 Mauser.

Incidentally, like Grumpy, I too have heard of a 6.5x57R though I have never seen or shot one. If I remember right, I have some photographs of a Johan Fanzoj rifle similarly chambered in India.

Cheers,

Mehul

danish21

After looking at your pictures I think you got a Brno m-22. To my knowledge ZG-47 never been offered with butter knife handle and "full stock” Bolt shroud on your rifle is also a very typical for the Brno m-21 and m-22. Perhaps you could post a close up picture of the actions left side?

Mehul, for the moment I have only four ZG-47 and am patiently waiting for the local Gestapo to issue a permit for a Brno m-21

Cheers
Johan

PS. how come the nickname Danish?

PWM the 6.5x57R was introduced specifically for double rifles - that`s what the rim was for.
Continental gummakers have built - and still build - double rifles in calibres smaller than the 7x65R - double rifles have even been built for the .22 Hornet.
Although the 9.3x74R is often advised for hunting Wild Boar it is frequently overkill which is why so many hunters are using smaller calibres nowadays - the 30-06 for one is becoming increasingly popular in double rifles used by European Wild Boar hunters.
Mehul and I have a friend in California who shot a wild pig earlier this year with his 6.5x55 Swede - an amazing one shot kill of a moving target taken while he was moving as well.
Mehul, something that has just occurred to me is that Johan might well be able to help Mark with his proposed .375 Rigby project - it`ll be worth him asking anyway.

Well, time for me to get up on the soap box and holler a bit

6,5X57R was intended as rimmed “small medium bore” calibre for break-open guns like kiplauf, bbf, bergstutzen, drillings, vierling, bockdrillings etc. It's mostly loaded with 90-127 grain bullets and often intended for fairly small game like gams, mufflon, roe, black grouse, marmot, badger, beaver or capericallie etc.

A common recommendation at estates and game parks in Central Europe is 7mm, or greater, for red stag, wild boar, fallow etc. On driven hunts were shots might be less than ideal 9,3X74r and 8X57IRS or 8X75RS offers a bit more comfort margin than smaller bores.

The top three rimmed cartridges in Europe for big game according to Norma, RWS and RUAG are 7X65R, 8X57IRS and 9,3X74R. Deutsche Jagdzeitung or Wild und Hund published survey about the most popular hunting cartridge in 2005 or so with similar results.

The current factory loads in 6,5X57 or 6,5X57R available today be illegal for big game in Scandinavia. 6,5X55 can achieve the legal requirements for class 1(basically, animals larger than roe deer) with 155 grain bullets. In my opinion it’s hardly an “ideal” for moose, wild boars, red stag or bear. IMHO, break-open guns = rimmed cartridges

PWM- Merkel offers doubles in 6,5X57R Are 6,5X65 and 30R Blaser catching on in your part of the world?

Cheers
Johan

Holler as much as you like Johan - what you have to say is worth listening to.
I agree that the 9.3x74R allows for a greater comfort factor but consider the 30-06 to be more versatile than the 8x57 JS or JRS - it also produces more energy. The 220 gr Woodleigh solid in the 30-06 is a superb combination and suitable for all European game......unfortunately European gunmakers don`t make barrels with a fast enough rate of twist to stabilise it.
The 6.5x55 is legal for all game in the UK where the minimum requirement is .240 cal bullets and 1700 ft lbs muzzle energy. I agree however that the 6.5x55 although adequate is hardly ideal for game larger than Red Deer - the same applies to the .243 Win although I do not consider that suitable for anything larger than Fallow. We don`t have to worry about Moose or bear because we don`t have any..........unfortunately.
We`re still waiting for the Government to make a decision about the status of Wild Boar in the UK. If they decide to give Wild Boar `game` status the sales of 9.3x74R double rifles will rocket.
How is the .30R Blaser selling in Europe ? As far as the UK and USA is concerned it is a lead baloon. Nobody is interested, it`s very difficult to source ammunition and extraordinarily expensive if you can find any. Apart from that there are the much more available - and less expensive - .300 magnums available for bolt action rifles.
I`m trying to make sense of your signature - I thought you passionally hated the R93 ? ......... Or do you mean by `one shot, two kills` that both the shooter and quarry are at risk ?

dont want to be an expert about this problem because I am a german.
The 6,5x57 + R are not very common here, I only know one here in my area with O/U combo in 6,5x57R. Its a typical roe deer cartridge and when you find a double rifle I suspekt its a south german/ austrian Bergstutzen with a 6,5x57R and and a small bore like 22 hornet, 222rem or 5,6x50R.
If there ever is a double rifle it can be only a custom gun!
Double rifles here in the middle of the world are buying only for wild boar as the game to hunt with. Yes, 30 06 is common here also in combination guns but 99% of all doubes sold here must be 7x65r, 8x57IRS and 9,3x74R. A rimless cartridge in a break breech action looks allways strange, to say it mild.
I0 years it was a great NO-NO to use semi automatic rifles in germany, they wasnt accept from the society but still legal. this change now and with more and more semi auto in use rimless cartridges come in the field of the double guns.

I think that many moose are shoot in Sweden before with the 6,5x55 like it was done with the 12,7x44R in old days. Have seen once a beautyfull husqvarna SXS combination gun in 16/65 and 12,7x44R.
Gun law is allways the reason, the 9,3x72R is not legal for anything , only roe deer in germany but a lot of big game was shot with it before WW2.

Thanks forum members for the comments regarding my rifle. But i want to say one thing that this is a medium bore rifle but has a very good stopping power. I have used 139 grain bullet in my 7x57mm rigby and 131 grain bullet in 6.5x57mm BRNO but did'nt find any diffrence. Obviously 173 grain bullet of 7x57mm has unmatched velocity and power but in 6.5x57mm only 131 grain bullet is available in the market.

Danish Ahmad

Grumpy- Yes, I still passionately hate blaser. You are spot on- blaser takes care of both man and beast. Perhaps it should be renamed to Blaster?

Must say I’m surprised that 240cal is legal for red stag, some of them in southern England can grow quite large- 7X57 or 7X64 would be my personal minimum for these. Woodleigh now makes a 240 grain 30 cal PP bullet that is 1,428 inches long and is supposedly working in standard 3006’s (1-10 in twist?)

Use of solids for big game is banned in Sweden. Class 1 and 2 game requires use of expanding projectiles, ones license and hunting exam would be at great risk if caught redhanded with solids. 3006 is a very popular calibre in Scandinavia however not many wants a double or break top gun chambered in rimless cartridge- it’s like mounting a trailer hitch and roof rack on a sports car, or scope a nice old classic double rifle. Some would even consider such deeds blasphemy or treachery. In general rimmed calibres operate at lower pressure, a bit more suitable for break top design.

I got ZG-47’s in 8x57IS and 3006, but never been able to see any difference in performance. Some of my friends use 250 grain woodleigh in 8mm, I’m contemplating to load my 8X64S with these. Perhaps I should re-barrel it to 8x68s or 338win?

Local gunshop owner says 6,5x55 or 243 aren’t selling well. For the last couple of years more people are buying class 1 rifles and many gets one (6,8mm, 7mm, 7,62mm) for roes, fallows and general stalking plus a second rifle (8mm,338, 358, 9,3mm-9,5mm) for moose, bears, driven hunts and wild boars. Growing numbers of wild boars and liberal season are the reasons for the declining numbers of 243, 6,5X55.. … Today, the local paper carried an article, golfers wept about the mayhem and destruction boars done to their course- Must say I found it rather amusing. Double and semi automatic rifles sell quite well- choice depends on interest and budget. Semi shotguns loaded with slugs or Brenneke are popular for tracking wounded animals. I know many who are getting specialised guns for various types of hunting. More people are getting a dedicated rifle for dusk and dawn stalking of boar and red stag, fitted with very clumsy and expensive scopes.

30 Blaser is an enthusiast cartridge in Scandinavia- I wonder if it ever will take off, RWS and RUAG are the only ones offering ammo and components. 6,5X65R is hardly never ever seen in Sweden. A kiplauf or falling block in 7X65R would do fine as “all round” stalking rifle.

6.5x57 R 8.2 g 127 gr V0 845 m/s
GEE 176 m
50 m + 1.4
100 m + 4.0
150 m + 2.5
200 m – 3.5
250 m – 14.7
300 m – 31.3

6.5x65 R 8.2 g 127 gr V0 890 m/s
GEE 185 m
50 m + 1.2
100 m + 3.9
150 m + 3.0
200 m – 1.9
250 m – 11.4
300 m – 25.9


7x65 R 10.0 g 154 gr V0 860 m/s
GEE 176 m
50 m + 1.2
100 m + 3.9
150 m + 2.5
200 m – 3.4
250 m – 13.9
300 m – 29.4

The difference in trajectory at 300m is 3,5 centimetres flatter trajectory and 6,5X65R got less energy and lighter bullet. Sad is that cartridges like 8X65RS and 8X75RS are not chambered by more makers.

Pwm- how many rounds can you load a semi auto with in Germany?

Danish21- so, have you managed to dig the camera out? When is your rifle manufactured? A 6,5X57 with 1-7 or 1-8 in twist it should stabilise 160 grain bullets, this would be strictly a handloaders option.

/Johan

MAUSER 98 Germany present for the world!
anyone here dont hate Blaser guns?

for hunting purposes its legal to have 2 in the magazin and 1 in the chamber, semi autos on the range are free now since the last 3 years, so big as the magazin can go

Johan, I agree that the .243 Win isn`t really enough gun for Red Stags - and yes, our Red Stags are BIG - up to around 600 lbs.
Calibre choices in the UK are very different than in Europe or Scandinavia with the .308 Win and .243 Win being the most popular. The .270 would be next - although a long way behind - and then probably the 6.5x55. The .270 is excellent but I suspect that many avoid it because it makes a heck of a bang - sounds like a magnum.
There are a few 7x57s around ( .275 Rigby ) but not many. A nice deer stalking cartridge though - the 7x65 is even better. The use of the 8x57JS is almost unknown in the UK.
In practical terms there is very little to choose between the 8x57 JS and the 30-06 except that 30-06 ammunition is MUCH more available.
I see that I said `220 gr` for the Woodleigh solid. Sorry, I meant `240` gr. Yes, a 1 in 10" rate of twist will stabilise the bullet but European gunmakers tend to use slower rates of twist - my 30-06 Schultz and Larsen has approximately a 1 in 11 1/2" rate of twist ( 1 in 30 cm I suspect. ) which isn`t fast enough to stabilise the big bullet.
Personally I suspect that I`d prefer an R93 to a Sako 75 - But psychologically the design of the R93 doesn`t inspire confidence. That`s a big lump to fly off and hit you in the face if something fails !
The use of double rifles is virtually zero in the UK although, as I said, that will probably change if the Government decide to give Wild Boar game status. We`ve been waiting for a decision for ages. At the moment Wild Boar have no official status at all which means that they are effectively classified as vermin with no close season.
Technically of course, the use of rimless cartridges is not ideal for use in a double rifle but 30-06 is increasingly popular. It is easily the most popular chambering for the Finn Classic 512S as I have found - I`m in the queue waiting for a pair of 30-06 barrels for mine ! That situation is much the same with other manufacturers as well. As hardly any of those rifles are sold in the UK that must mean that they are sold elsewhere in Europe ( except France, of course, which doesn`t allow the use of `military` calibres.
As an alternative to the .338 Mag have you thought about the .338-06 ? Has most of the advantages of the .338 mag but operates at lower pressure, makes much less noise and recoil is very comfortable. 300 gr bullets are available in .338 which gives the .338-06 a very impressive SD.
I have a set of barrels for the 9.3x74R because I really like the calibre. I also like Normas` 286 gr `Oryx` ....... It`s a shame that Norma ammo is so expensive !

danish21";p="4875 wrote: If any one have information regarding this toy then please update me. I am attaching few pics of my rifle.

Very nice rifle.

I agree with Johan. It is an early model 22F and the date of manufacture will be stamped on the left side of the rifle where the barrel meets the action (two digits). The 6.5x57 should be loaded with 140 gr IMO.