Indians For Guns

A newfound interest to trace the ballastics and other details of old 4 Bore, 8 Bore and specially 12 Bore rifles and the Nitro Paradox guns revealed the following :

The mighty 8 Bore Double rifle.

Father of the 600 Nitro Express.

The 8 Bore double weighing about 16 3/4 lb hurled a 1100 grains ball at 1500 fps with 10 drams of Black powder charge behing it.

On an equvalent basis it is firing three ASTRAMS together in one barrel.

Definetely a more Elephant Rhino gun.

However the 8 Bore Nitro Paradox also achieved the same results upto 100 - 150 yards, the usual shooting range in most situations.

Weighing about 4 lb less than an 8 Bore double, the 8 Bore paradox was heavy at 13 lb and hurled a 750 grain paradox almunium / lead cast ball with 8 drams of powder behind it.

The 10 Bore Paradox was the gun of Africa hurling a 2 Oz lead cast bullet.

12 Bore was the most common nitro paradox with which Tigers, Deer and all hoofed game was taken in India those days.

Upto 150 yards it could tackle all game this side of Tiger.

For long range applications upto 250 yards a Magnum paradox with 5 drams of powder was developed.

The normal paradox load was 4 drams. Weighing about 7 1/4 lb. Magnum paradox 12 Bore guns were 8 1/2 lb. It fired a 735 grain bullet.

A great paradox for deer, wild bore and other smaller hoofed game and fairly light to handle was the 16 Bore. This shot a 550 grain bullet from a 2 1/2 inch case cartridge with about 4 dram eq. of powder. I had the opportunity to use it but for shot only, we had no paradox balls available in India till this 16 bore H & H was sold last year.



What was the predecessor to our modern Win .243, .270 or 30-06 Rifles.

stuff like .360 Miniature Express. This fired a 200 grain bullet with 2 drams of powder. Suitable for Deer size game upto 150 yards.

Did this lead to .275 Magnum and .240 apex calibres development in the later decades by H & H ?
Modern versions of these cartridges are the 7 mm and the Win .243 and other 6 mm calibres respectively.

Regarding your paradox,do you have restrictions on manufacturing your own ammunition?

If a die to cast a Nitro paradox slug is available then its fine. It has to be backed by 4 Dram Eq. of powder. IOF Astram is 3 1/4. Not enough, so you have to go round to incresing the powder to 4 DE or totally had load a cartridge.

So it is difficult to load for these old black powder guns and quite a few nitros I suspect. Do you see the regulations becoming more stringent or loosing up a bit in the future?

Nitro Paradox is not Black powder, it is cordite, nitrocellulose based compund.

As for old black powder, there exists a huge following in the USA, why these mavericks are interested in covering their faces with soot is anybody's guess but bullet availability is more restricted to the yankee favourite calibres, I am not sure if conical slugs or velopex bullet clones for 10 Bore, 8 Bore, 4 Bore are bein cast and commercially sold.

I was asking my question in terms of India. Are reloading supplies available or allowable. Do the regulations vary by region and are those regulations becoming stricter. Can you, or do you see a time, when you will be able to reload for these guns.

I am familiar with reloading for many of the above mentioned guns and I have been known to get a little soot on myface from time to time

Reloading is allowed for personal use in India. Blackpowder is available, better quality can be had from a good Aaatishbaz.

Casting a bullet is possible if you have the die.

But this sports has little following in India. If there was a double in 4 Bore or 8 Bore most probably Westley Richards buyers would have purchased it and taken it back to England / UK.

In the picture you have posted above the Slug is very much a Nitro Paradox bullet and the brass case seems to be a 12 Bore / 16 Bore case.

What is Aaatishbaz, a powder? Is it a blackpowder substitute or a nitro cellulose?

The bullet is very much a paradox, not a nitro, but an 8 as is the brass case for a 10 dram gun.

I have read of the difficulties of getting a gun out of India, and Holland , Westley et all have sent many guns abroad, do you see a time when these guns come filtering back into India?

In the first post you stated a new found interest in the old black powder loads were you speaking on a personal or regional bases?

An "aatishbaz" would be, literally, a "fire-maker". Somebody who makes blackpowder small scale. Powder can be excellent quality, down to very poor. Never quite the same.

Interesting, that would be difficult to do here in the US and not run afoul of the authorities.

New found interest is in the USa not here. Good quality Black powder within a certain manufacturing standard is made and marketed for civilian sale there.

In India my guess is it is legal to reload for personal use.

However Black powder is not a standerdised commodity and Dram Eq. is always a guess.

Aatishbaz is your local village pyrotechnics expert and fireworks maker. Not a regular one but one who designs some more innovative fireworks. These guys make some Barood derivatives and Black Powder.

Various other people indulge in this Alchemy. SOme make Potassium Chlorate based mixtures, others indulge in GUn Cotton, a few have other concotions, results are always poor.

The Era of classic rifles and traditional shooting with Black powder weapons in India or old classic guns returning is remote.

India has been emptied out.

Draconian British laws against Indian Independence fighters came to the aid of vested interests in 1950s who decided a lot of money can be made in restricting the Indian middle class with posession of firearms.

Today there is a shortage of mass produced civilian small arms for self defence, a 400 Dollar Walther PPK demanding Rs. 7.5 Lakhs, where do we see a future ?

If the next central govt. comes to power in 2009 there is no hope for a long time.

However as of now, the Min of State foe Defence is an avid shooter and keen sportsman, so are a number of Mps, including the MP from Amethi who is an accredited Pistol Shooter ( He got admission to St. Stephens College ) with this sports being his additional merit in 1988-89.

There are seven other MPs with various interests in Shooting sports.

We are attempting to raise a question in the parliment against import ban and easier licencing.

Promotion of shooting sports amongst youngsters, encouragement at school level for this sports.

Lets see how it goes.

Sounds as though there is a possibility of a change of the staus quo, over time.
Then it would be just as difficult to import an antique rifle into India as it would a modern firearm?

gatsby";p="45761 wrote: Sounds as though there is a possibility of a change of the staus quo, over time.
Then it would be just as difficult to import an antique rifle into India as it would a modern firearm?

As things stand - the answer would be no. The import of firearms of all types has been banned (except for a few sportsperson cases etc.) and as per law an old blackpowder firearm is equally covered by this ban.

Just a few years back (circa 2003-04) there was a report in the papers about an American contractor who was returning from Afghanistan via New Delhi. He was arrested at the airport as he had with him one/ more old Afghan matchlock(s) that he was taking back to USA.

As things stand now - NO guns can be exported unless they are of "odd bore/ calibre" for which ammunition is not manufactured/ available in India. Also, guns which are considered as antiques cannot be exported as per some protection of antiquities legislation that is in place (not sure of the details, but think it covers any gun manufactured prior to 1900 or so). Of course people still find ways to procure the relevant permissions and export fine guns - a bit of palm greasing and the paperwork is done. While the bulk of the fine guns in India have already left for overseas, even now there is still a small trickle that continues to leave every year...

Would these guns ever make their way back home? Doubt it... before that can happen the following changes in the law would be required:

a) Reopening of imports of arms & ammo
b) Removing the restriction of 3 arms licenses per person/ putting in a provision for a "collectors license"
c) Easy imports/ availability of quality reloading supplies

A shame really, especially considering the historical ties of almost all the fine English gunmakers and the Indian market...

HTH

Cheers!
Abhijeet

That is a shame. Certainly not much danger in an old Holland BPE.

It is a shame yes I fully agree , and I am prepared to face a long struggle ahead with efforts towards amendments.