Indians For Guns

In an earlier post on the IOF .30-06 a range of 400m was mentioned, and questioned. This made little sense, as "range" depends on bullet weight, shape, and velocity; and is about ten times that for a caliber such as the .30-06.  Then, when perusing the IOF .315 site, which gives a range of 275m, the little light bulb came on.  Those chaps are after all military, and the military considers as "range" a distance at which the bullet does not stray beyond a certain distance above or below the line of sight.  What that distance is, whether that is 4" or a foot is pretty much up to the person defining "range", in this case I'd guess it's close to the former.Amusingly, they give the "range" as 275m, but then say that the scoped version will let you shoot safely from 300m.Incidentally, that rifle doesn't look too bad in the pictures.  Forearm a bit fuller and longer than it needs to be, with the nose too bulbous, but butt stock well shaped.  Apparantly patterned after the Mark 8 target rifle.  Interestingly they go to the trouble of installing the charger guide bridge, useless in this caliber, which makes me wonder whether they are reusing old .303 actions.  They would save money and have a nicer looking gun without the bridge.Cheers.

TwoRivers";p="40596 wrote:In an earlier post on the IOF .315 SP / SPT... Forearm a bit fuller and longer than it needs to be, with the nose too bulbous, but butt stock well shaped.  Apparantly patterned after the Mark 8 target rifle.  Interestingly they go to the trouble of installing the charger guide bridge, useless in this caliber, which makes me wonder whether they are reusing old .303 actions.  They would save money and have a nicer looking gun without the bridge.Cheers.

Looking at the pictures and data on page...

http://www.gunaccessory.com/IOF/315_rifle.htm

One would have as a guess the criteria for the design of this rifle would encompass defensive (against large animals on four legs), offensive (for those on two) and sports shooting (against the legless, yet evil, paper target).

This necessitates that the stock be robust, not pretty. The 'line' of this stock is reminiscent of those of the Australian SMLE 'sporter' movement, where weight reduction was important and style secondary.

The comb runs along a line that is within that of the underside of the forend, driving the recoil in much of a straight line into the sholder. This is a characteristic of shotgun stock design, of which India is renowned.

So, to create a rifle in only two models, be it though only with an addition of a very light magnification (x3) scope, and to satisfy everyone's demand in a 'permitted' calibre is commendable. Moreso is the novel tube front sight that not only protects the post, but provides a centering ring for the mid barrel rear iron sight, presumed to be a notch or 'V' to work with. Imagine the improvement by upgrading with a bolt-on peep sight by Parker Hale or the like.

Have any board members tried a peep sight on this model?

An ungenerous person would suggest that this calibre is as a result of India's frugelness in recycling inventory of shot out .303 barrels (.311 grove dia.). Run the button through to bring it up to the .315 nonmilitary specification, fit a new rear and front sight to match the new ballistics using the same pin holes.

By marrying that to an existing in-stores receiver and two (rather than four) pieces of wood, this is a design result that could well last another 50 years. Not sure when it was first released, but believe it to be before the 1990s.

There is NO charger bridge shown in the photos and yes the action is modelled on that of JP Lee's design, appears to be a modern fabrication of the classic magazine fed action renowned in the SMLE family. Using the ten round magazine, but only loads five.

The IOF .315 rifle is in keeping with a tradition started in 1879, and as far as recycling barrels goes, think about how the _Short_ Magazine Lee Enfield came about. The No. 1 barrels were cut down, yet those same original heavy barrels became a favourite of the Australians who contributed two significant design improvements neglected by the English. One is production of the 'H' for heavy barrel, free floated and only bedded around the knox block and the addition of two copper shims between the wood impact surfaces and receiver recoil lugs.

This rifle has all the hallmarks of an affordable export grade product and in light of the negative renown the India made SMLE mil-surplus 7.62 and .303 bolt actions have earnt, basically because those rifles released to sale, really should have gone to the junkers yard, the new IOF .315 would find a ready and accepting market....but.... only if a) ammunition and b) that reloading dies and projectiles were readily available.

This model could not be too bad as it has been seen for sale at 55,000 on this board.

The only improvements I could suggest would be:
a) to see the return of the 'Ishapore Screw', but this time with its own unique design and headstamp, and
b) checkering plus artwork worked into the timber,
thereby making this rifle a true collectors item.

No idea how it shoots, but am willing to give it a go if IOF could arrange it.

Best regards,

Harry Downunder

You're right, no charger bridge. My bad. Should have looked at the IOF site instead of an 1960s magazine article. The rifle in .315 India was introduced no later than the late 1960s, and may have looked a bit different then. Peep sight would be good, especially as the current sight seems to be deemed useless by forum members familiar with the IOF rifle. Overall, the stock appears well designed, though I personally prefer a bit less wood in the forearm. As to .311" groove diameter, not since the Lee-Metford. Minimum Groove diameter for the L-E No.1Mk.3 is .314". Whether a shot out .303 barrel could be rebored to a caliber with .313" minimum bore diameter, is questionable. I would assume that IOF uses new barrels, for the .315, even if reconditioned .303 actions were ever used. As a sporter the 8x50R was standardized with .313' minimum bore, .324" minimum groove. As a military caliber it had rounded grooves with a minimum diameter of .327". Normal diameter tolerance on bore and groove is .002", though some militaries allowed more, and modern production is held to much less. Would be nice to know the rifling specs IOF uses for the .315 India. Cheers.

TwoRivers";p="40596 wrote: In an earlier post on the IOF .30-06 a range of 400m was mentioned, and questioned. .........Amusingly, they give the "range" as 275m, but then say that the scoped version will let you shoot safely from 300m.......Cheers.

The effective range of a given caliber is dependent upon multiple things.
Those that come to the top of my mind are:
1. Muzzle Velocity
2. BC of the bullet
3. Length of the barrel and twist rate
4. Weather conditions to an extent

This is without taking into consideration the individual abilities of a shooter to actually be able to utilize the weapon effectively.

400 meters for a .30-06 is pretty much well beyond the abilities of most shooters.

While it remains possible to make hits with a .30-06 out to 800 meters, that is typically with with a combination of very finely tuned rifles and hand loaded ammunition using a variety of bullets such as the Lapua Scenar, Sierra HPBT, and Berger VLD's. Some of the resulting cartridges wont even fit in standard magazines, thus requiring them to be fed one at a time via the breech.

But hey dont take my word for it. Go try some shooting at 300+ meters. It really is an eye opener.
Or even take the humble .22lr out for a spin. In theory the nominal range is 2 miles. But try making consistent hits at 100 meters, or at 200 if you enjoy frustration.

MoA: Your points are well taken. Except that twist rate, as long as the bullet is stabilized to its full range, is not a player. If you read my post more slowly, you will realize that I tried to explain what the maker meant by "Range", not what a particular shooter, different loads, etc. could do under what conditions. They are talking trajectory above and below line of sight, with their loading of the particular cartridge. If you read the flap of your .22 RF again, slowly, you will see that it will say "One Mile", or "1.5 miles" for some of the newer high-velocity loadings. But that "range" is maximum flight distance at optimal elevation (and no head wind). Knowledge can be quickly aquired, comprehension takes time. There is yet hope. Cheers.

TwoRivers";p="42191 wrote:MoA: Your points are well taken. Except that twist rate, as long as the bullet is stabilized to its full range, is not a player. ....... There is yet hope. Cheers.

Twist rates are critical, since not all twist rates stabilize bullets equally.

And in any case the most critical factor in achieving a given range is gravity.

In any case... like I said, go out and shoot. That at the end of the day is what will improve your skills. The rest is academic.

hi
range and there is range, well let me say it like this,

1/ range of a bullet is how far it will go untill drops to ground.

2/ Effective range, which means from the firing point to a distance where the max harm the bullet will do.

then we would have to look at the requriment of the shooter, ie hunters will shoot at around 200 M, while men in green would shoot at 300 to take down their target.

nagarifle