Indians For Guns

I have had a .22 rifle for decades now. So while I was thinking of using some KF rounds to zero my scope, the demons of the past began to laugh at me.
There is just so much baggage with KF .22 rounds that it will take some deep Zen-like cleansing to get to the rounds on paper. I remember the frustrating days of the 25/50 ammo quota and buying 25 bullets from a gun shop in Connaught Place and buying cartridges that would at most times go phhht or stay even more silent and just jam the rifle. I digress, the question was about the ideal zero. In the early nineties, a very decent lady police commissioner heard my appeal and increased my ammo quota to 250/500. And in the same time, I met this gentlemen arms dealer and shop owner in Kashmere Gate. For the first time, I saw the new KF white cardboard boxes of ammo so I went to the range with a small 3-9X 24 scope. Following the range master's instructions I labouriously made a stand of bricks covered by a mat for prone shooting the rifle. The first few shots went here and there but I managed to fix the windage first, After that I left the elevation at two inches higher for fifty meters and beyond.
My rifle always had an atrocious trigger and most target shooters proclaimed it useless, till I shot a nine at fifty meters with it, the critics were quiet after that.
But whenever I tried using it scoped beyond 30 m, it would not group with KF ammo. Hotter American CCI Mini- Mags etc would work great and so would most match rounds. But KF's would make me want to wrap my rifle around a tree trunk. With Lapua ammo I have shot a beer bottle neck from a kneeling position at a lasered range of 62 yards but with KFs that is still a dream. So gentlemen please do share what is your ideal zero distance for a scoped .22 with our good old KFS.

dev, not a response to your request, but I observe the triple whammy the law abiding citizen must endure:

1. Strangling quotas that prevent reasonable practice and development of basic skills

2. Inferior merchandise that doesn't provide a tool with useful utility

3. Crippling prices that block working around alternatives to inferior products, and almost make the quotas moot: even if you could get more ammunition or guns by law, you probably couldn't afford the alternative products of useful quality anyway.

Your story illustrates the fact, regarding your trigger, that enough practice can overcome a lot of obstacles, if only . . .

A bigger scope could help

hornet22 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 08, 2024 7:05 am

A bigger scope could help

How?

Lapua makes match ammunition so it can't be compared with KF

With KF one cannot expect tight groups, no body uses KF ammo for competitions

eljefe wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 08, 2024 8:08 am

hornet22 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 08, 2024 7:05 am

A bigger scope could help

How?

Bigger scopes with wider lense will allow more light in and the image will be more clearer offcourse the quality of the optics will also be a factor and heavier scopes better cope with vibrations when a gun is fired which will help in consistent shots because the zeroing will not be affected which will lead to better groups also the mounting rings are sturdier in larger scopes.

That's my theory

dev wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 12:38 pm

I have had a .22 rifle for decades now. So while I was thinking of using some KF rounds to zero my scope, the demons of the past began to laugh at me.
There is just so much baggage with KF .22 rounds that it will take some deep Zen-like cleansing to get to the rounds on paper. I remember the frustrating days of the 25/50 ammo quota and buying 25 bullets from a gun shop in Connaught Place and buying cartridges that would at most times go phhht or stay even more silent and just jam the rifle. I digress, the question was about the ideal zero. In the early nineties, a very decent lady police commissioner heard my appeal and increased my ammo quota to 250/500. And in the same time, I met this gentlemen arms dealer and shop owner in Kashmere Gate. For the first time, I saw the new KF white cardboard boxes of ammo so I went to the range with a small 3-9X 24 scope. Following the range master's instructions I labouriously made a stand of bricks covered by a mat for prone shooting the rifle. The first few shots went here and there but I managed to fix the windage first, After that I left the elevation at two inches higher for fifty meters and beyond.
My rifle always had an atrocious trigger and most target shooters proclaimed it useless, till I shot a nine at fifty meters with it, the critics were quiet after that.
But whenever I tried using it scoped beyond 30 m, it would not group with KF ammo. Hotter American CCI Mini- Mags etc would work great and so would most match rounds. But KF's would make me want to wrap my rifle around a tree trunk. With Lapua ammo I have shot a beer bottle neck from a kneeling position at a lasered range of 62 yards but with KFs that is still a dream. So gentlemen please do share what is your ideal zero distance for a scoped .22 with our good old KFS.

What is the barrel twist in your rifle?
Usually 1:16” is commonest world wide.
Asking, because let’s break it down into all variables.

Bolt /pump or gas action?

What is the weight of the ammo that does well?
And,
KF ammo? Is it 40 gr ?

It was the norm until mid 80’s, for exclusive use of KF ammo in all state association matches. Rifles could be your own or the ever popular Brno No. 2 or BSA martini single shot club rifles.

Yup , there was always a ‘fizzed’ in the course. Say 1:3-400 rounds that were fired. 10-12mm groups at 50m were common.
The plain, brown box KF.

Instead of brick and blanket, take along 2-3 x1 kg plastic packs of the cheapest rice. Ideal for sandbag use.

Do you clean the barrel with a wire brush? Dont. .22 LR rifles need 2-3 to even 5 k rounds thru them to get a uniform patina of lead. Then they reach their peak performance.

Check:
Guard screws 20 inch-lbs torque
Scope base mounts 15-20 inch-lbs torque per screw.
Rings -same
Clean all screws with acetone and dab on a drop of nail polish and tighten. You wont need locktite level of thread lock.

Bedding- remove action - barrel from stock and look at barrel groove, ensure no high spots in wood. Epoxy bed if you can.

I’ve tried 1.25-5x and 2-7x scopes on my Model 2 Brno. It has all the above mods and is essentially a hunting rifle.

Last call- change scope ??


Does as expected with most Ammo brands.
Zeroed for 66m. Am happy to go upto double that distance.

Loves the cheapest AMCOR Phillipino ammo !

Eley and RWS do spectacularly well. But, the AMCOR HP Hi Vel always cloverleaf, mostly into one hole.

Sometimes, that’s the way it is

eljefe wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 08, 2024 12:09 pm

dev wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 12:38 pm

I have had a .22 rifle for decades now. So while I was thinking of using some KF rounds to zero my scope, the demons of the past began to laugh at me.
There is just so much baggage with KF .22 rounds that it will take some deep Zen-like cleansing to get to the rounds on paper. I remember the frustrating days of the 25/50 ammo quota and buying 25 bullets from a gun shop in Connaught Place and buying cartridges that would at most times go phhht or stay even more silent and just jam the rifle. I digress, the question was about the ideal zero. In the early nineties, a very decent lady police commissioner heard my appeal and increased my ammo quota to 250/500. And in the same time, I met this gentlemen arms dealer and shop owner in Kashmere Gate. For the first time, I saw the new KF white cardboard boxes of ammo so I went to the range with a small 3-9X 24 scope. Following the range master's instructions I labouriously made a stand of bricks covered by a mat for prone shooting the rifle. The first few shots went here and there but I managed to fix the windage first, After that I left the elevation at two inches higher for fifty meters and beyond.
My rifle always had an atrocious trigger and most target shooters proclaimed it useless, till I shot a nine at fifty meters with it, the critics were quiet after that.
But whenever I tried using it scoped beyond 30 m, it would not group with KF ammo. Hotter American CCI Mini- Mags etc would work great and so would most match rounds. But KF's would make me want to wrap my rifle around a tree trunk. With Lapua ammo I have shot a beer bottle neck from a kneeling position at a lasered range of 62 yards but with KFs that is still a dream. So gentlemen please do share what is your ideal zero distance for a scoped .22 with our good old KFS.

What is the barrel twist in your rifle?
Usually 1:16” is commonest world wide.
Asking, because let’s break it down into all variables.

Bolt /pump or gas action?

What is the weight of the ammo that does well?
And,
KF ammo? Is it 40 gr ?

It was the norm until mid 80’s, for exclusive use of KF ammo in all state association matches. Rifles could be your own or the ever popular Brno No. 2 or BSA martini single shot club rifles.

Yup , there was always a ‘fizzed’ in the course. Say 1:3-400 rounds that were fired. 10-12mm groups at 50m were common.
The plain, brown box KF.

Instead of brick and blanket, take along 2-3 x1 kg plastic packs of the cheapest rice. Ideal for sandbag use.

Do you clean the barrel with a wire brush? Dont. .22 LR rifles need 2-3 to even 5 k rounds thru them to get a uniform patina of lead. Then they reach their peak performance.

Check:
Guard screws 20 inch-lbs torque
Scope base mounts 15-20 inch-lbs torque per screw.
Rings -same
Clean all screws with acetone and dab on a drop of nail polish and tighten. You wont need locktite level of thread lock.

Bedding- remove action - barrel from stock and look at barrel groove, ensure no high spots in wood. Epoxy bed if you can.

I’ve tried 1.25-5x and 2-7x scopes on my Model 2 Brno. It has all the above mods and is essentially a hunting rifle.

Last call- change scope ??


Does as expected with most Ammo brands.
Zeroed for 66m. Am happy to go upto double that distance.

Loves the cheapest AMCOR Phillipino ammo !

Eley and RWS do spectacularly well. But, the AMCOR HP Hi Vel always cloverleaf, mostly into one hole.

Sometimes, that’s the way it is

A cuppa later, I remembered about the KF inconsistency.
Massive variations in rim thickness, projectile diameters were common
And Ofcourse, they varied from whiz bang supersonic to Pffst fall out of the barrel. All from the same box.

So, with a 100 variables in a box of 100 rounds, your rifle or scope, even if it were a nightforce 12-42x ( would be a night mare with with the mirage and parellax and weight ) cant make the ammo group.

hornet22 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 08, 2024 9:13 am

eljefe wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 08, 2024 8:08 am

hornet22 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 08, 2024 7:05 am

A bigger scope could help

How?

Bigger scopes with wider lense will allow more light in and the image will be more clearer offcourse the quality of the optics will also be a factor and heavier scopes better cope with vibrations when a gun is fired which will help in consistent shots because the zeroing will not be affected which will lead to better groups also the mounting rings are sturdier in larger scopes.

That's my theory

Ok. We’ll Keep it theoretical, until you mount and use a scope.
On any rifle.
Bigger objectives do help with increased light transmission, but does not equate with clarity.
The 8x56 by many manufacturers is a big favourite for late dusk and early am shooting in Europe, especially Germany. Suits their topography and shooting conditions.

There are scopes made by March, go upto 5-50x magnification. Used in precision shooting disciplines. F class, etc.

3-9x or 4-12 are about the maximum a prudent hunter would want. Even for a flat shooting .300 Weatherby or 7 Rem Mag or 7 RUM.
If I was shooting a .22 at 700m , as Eric Cortina does, it will need an after market barrel, top of the line optics and the whole high tech modification.

.22 at 100 m in the usual, non target scenario, a fixed 4x or a max of 2-7x is ideal.

If you have a 5-25x scope, say, on a .22 , for 100-125m use, might sound fine on paper. BUT, remember when you dial up to 25 power , you have to deal with other variables. Physics is a very harsh task master and one pays the price in the form of FOV, mirage, chromatic aberration etc. FFP Vs SFP and many others.
AND
If you have an error, say a slight shake, at 3x ,it is magnified at the top range.
I was taught to use the minimum magnification to assess wind, mirage, distance etc for ranges from 600-1000y.

Scope zero, PBR and trajectory is another can of worms, beyond the scope of my post.

Needs a fair bit of optics theory understanding.


‘ Zero’ is where the aiming point of a scope coincides with the trajectory of the projectile, hopefully with wind, coriolis force, barometric pressure and umpteen other equations being constant.

Once set for a particular load , distance and shooter, should not change.

Ever.

So zero the .22 at 25y, get the PBR and then one can adjust windage /elevation as required.
The wind flag flopping at a steady 45* , may need a 2 -4 click windage left or right at 100m,for a 140 gr projectile at 2700 fps.
For a 40 gr .22 at 1020 fps, may need 10 clicks. On the same 3-9 scope, running 1/4” per click.

POA - point of aim -is different from
POI- point of impact.

When these two are made to coincide(seemingly) the a rifle is considered zeroed.
Trying to keep things simple here.
To help you understand.
The rest of the hardware like rings , mounts, torque, barrel tuners, blast diverters can only help in reducing variables.

People shoot 18lb ‘rail guns’ mounted on a massive contraptions, to eliminate human error or to keep it very negligible.

Hope this helps.

Although the topic is different but since you bought the argument Would change in point of aim would not change the point of impact?
Scopes work on the principal of peep sights if I am not wrong if the sights are loose and shaking then it will affect the point of aim
I am just talking basics and not going into the depth of MOA's and rail or mounting platforms

hornet22 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 08, 2024 9:12 pm

Although the topic is different but since you bought the argument Would change in point of aim would not change the point of impact?
Scopes work on the principal of peep sights if I am not wrong if the sights are loose and shaking then it will affect the point of aim
I am just talking basics and not going into the depth of MOA's and rail or mounting platforms

Yes, the zeroing method is similar and the peep sights are also attached on a rail, the only major difference is that a scope has magnification .

hornet22 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 08, 2024 9:12 pm

Although the topic is different but since you bought the argument Would change in point of aim would not change the point of impact?
Scopes work on the principal of peep sights if I am not wrong if the sights are loose and shaking then it will affect the point of aim
I am just talking basics and not going into the depth of MOA's and rail or mounting platforms

Well, I did not put up an ‘Argument’ , per se.
You suggested that a rifle which shoots poorly ONLY with KF would improve with a bigger scope.
So, I tried to explain the variables of shooting , POA, POI etc.
Why should a bigger scope and increase in light transmission and heavy rings etc dramatically improve the performance when the QC of KF and its performance is so bad.
And
The gun in question is accurate with other brands and the same scope.

We won’t delve into MOA, Ive been using Milrad and comfortable with it and, its not relevant.

Help me understand this:

“… Would change in point of aim would not change the point of impact?…”

It better.

If I aim at the 10 ring, 6 o clock -that’s point of aim
If bullet hits the same spot - ‘point of impact’
I expect this of a zeroed rifle.
If a scope ‘wanders’ without me changing anything, then we have a problem. Not necessarily with scope alone. May be the platform, the accoutrements or the ammo.

Sights loose /shaking etc will affect ALL brands, not just KF.

Automatic1947 wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 09, 2024 6:43 am

hornet22 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 08, 2024 9:12 pm

Although the topic is different but since you bought the argument Would change in point of aim would not change the point of impact?
Scopes work on the principal of peep sights if I am not wrong if the sights are loose and shaking then it will affect the point of aim
I am just talking basics and not going into the depth of MOA's and rail or mounting platforms

Yes, the zeroing method is similar and the peep sights are also attached on a rail, the only major difference is that a scope has magnification .

No, scopes don't work on the same principle as the peep sight.

The human eye works to focus clearly on one plane -- other planes are not focused.

So, when we sight a rifle or handgun, the rear sight is fuzzy and the target is fuzzy, but we focus on the front sight, as errors on the front sight are less detrimental than the other two.

A peep sight operates on the principle of the eye centering an image when looking through a small aperture.We look through the peep sight and it is fuzzy, and the front sight is clear, but the eye's natural properties center the front sight in the aperture for us, even though it is fuzzy. So, the eye must only deal with two planes, front sight and target, not three, as in conventional sights.

A telescopic sight optically places the reticle and the target on the same plane, so the entire sight picture, both aiming and target, only requires the eye to focus on one plane. the optics in the scope do this for us.

Also:

Aside from a number of small factors that affect the accuracy of shooting, the three major ones are:

1. Is the gun basically accurate, in and of itself.

2. Is the shooter proficient -- can he or she hit the target reliably and repeatably.

3. Is the ammunition any good? This can mean the bullet -- is it shaped symmetrically and are all of them the same, are there interior voids that change the weight from bullet to bullet or cause wobble because of an imbalance in the spinning bullet, is the powder weight consistent between rounds, is the powder's burn consistent, is the bullet seated in the case the same way from round to round, and with the same neck tension and crimp, is the case of uniform thickness to deliver the bullet squarely into the throat of the barrel, and is the primer consistent in amount and performance from round to round, igniting the powder the same each time?

No matter how accurate the rifle is, if the shooter is a bad shot, no accuracy can result.

If the rifle is of poor accuracy, even a good shooter won't be able to hit with accuracy with it.

But, if the ammunition is inferior, even the best shooter with the best gun won't be able to do much with it, even if the Web Space Telescope is mounted as your scope. Bullets won't leave the barrel the same way, in the same direction, and at the same speed each time to strike at the same point of impact.

I have gotten to the age where I think I ought to start shooting some of my old 22 ammo, as I'm continually buying new. (Some of this ammo is 40 years old!) I took my Wife's Ruger Mark IV pistol to the range and was lucky to be able to keep my shots on a 30 mm square target at 25 yards. I tried resting the gun in my hands on the bench, but to no avail.

I wondered whether my 22 ammo stock was getting too old.

The next time a couple days later, I went out with some of the old ammo, along with four other brands that ranged from about 15 years old to brand new from the store. I shot 10 shot groups of each offhand, and 5 shot groups two handed, resting on the bench, and got the same result.

I had taken a scoped 22 rifle with me, as well, trying to figure out whether the problem was my shooting or the gun, or what. I didn't think it was me, since I've been doing alright with 9mm and 45 Auto shooting, but who knows? I wanted to eliminate all variables to find the problem. I found that with the rifle, I got nice little groups at 25 yards and was able to hit small steel targets at 50 yards with full reliability.

When I got home and began cleaning up, I felt something funny on my Wife's pistol, and then noted that the screw holding down the front sight was quite loose. It was rattling all over the place and I was never going to get a consistent sight picture from shot to shot.

Now it is cold and snowy, and I haven't been in the mood to head out and retry my Wife's pistol, but I'm sure the Mark IV will shoot well now. We shall see.

But the point is, no matter what ammo and no matter how well I was shooting, the gun was not going to let me shoot it in that condition accurately. You HAVE to have an accurate gun, accurate ammunition, and be an accurate shooter to shoot accurately.

The problem with poor ammunition (or gun) is that no matter how much you practice, you won't learn much when shooting, because you can't see when you are doing something wrong or whether it's the poor ammunition. All you will be able to say when you get home from the range is that you couldn't hit a bull's butt with a bass fiddle. And you won't know why.

I have some old 7.62 x 54r Albanian ammo that sometimes goes bang and sometimes goes fizz, and none of it can hit the broadside of a barn at 100 yards. Likewise, I have some old Turkish 8 x 57 that often is inaccurate -- the ignition seems right with a huge bang and a big fireball (it's said to be machine gun ammo, but I don't know), but it often has cracks in the neck of the case -- those rounds won't hit anything, either.

If you have lousy ammo, you won't do much good no matter what kind of super duper scope you have.

Since the quotas are so low, I'd say to buy known good ammo and leave the poor ammo on the shelf. If you can only shoot so much, why waste your time and money throwing lead willy-nilly downrange?

Doc its 1:16 inches
Marlin uses their proprietary Micro-Groove rifling in the Model 60. The twist rate is 1:16 inches, right-hand. Micro-Groove rifling uses 16 small lands and grooves rather than 4, 6 or 8 deeper grooves used in most rifles.
It's a semi-auto if you remember, don't know if you had a go with it when you were here. Groups well with Lapua and all CCI ammo but no go with KF.
Agree with Timmy that it's better to use good ammo that works than scratch the head with bad stuff. I was just curious if anyone else had been facing similar problems and found some solution, But the strange thing is that I have shot a one-hole 5-shot group with an ordinance factory bolt action .22 LR at 25m off a sandbagged rest prone with the same miracle bullets.

dev wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 09, 2024 3:07 pm

Doc its 1:16 inches
Marlin uses their proprietary Micro-Groove rifling in the Model 60. The twist rate is 1:16 inches, right-hand. Micro-Groove rifling uses 16 small lands and grooves rather than 4, 6 or 8 deeper grooves used in most rifles.
It's a semi-auto if you remember, don't know if you had a go with it when you were here. Groups well with Lapua and all CCI ammo but no go with KF.
Agree with Timmy that it's better to use good ammo that works than scratch the head with bad stuff. I was just curious if anyone else had been facing similar problems and found some solution, But the strange thing is that I have shot a one-hole 5-shot group with an ordinance factory bolt action .22 LR at 25m off a sandbagged rest prone with the same miracle bullets.

Ah, ok.
I must have used it when you took me to Siri fort to teach me pistol shooting.

I have that problem with hoarding and ammo. All calibers, and in .22, a dozen different brands. And a filing cabinet full of it. Got to help the gun shops survive.

After many years of F class, surgeon actions and weigh sorting cases etc that anal retention unfortunately has become ingrained.
The Nightforce and Schmidt & Bender scopes may be good for a finely trained army sniper,and the gun magazine ad’s. but wind it upto 42x and day-um the mirage makes you cry.

Dev, I second Timmy, find a brand that works for you in your rifle. Never mind the 1/4” with the IOF ammo and rifle.
The finest demo I’ve seen is by then 13 year old daughter grab the single shot Rossi and the Armscorp ammo and run a one holer at 50y.
It wore a $20 blue tinted scope which I bought for its small size.
Off eBay.
I haven’t changed it. And it still shots the same tiny groups with its fav hi vel ammo when i shoot it.

Like I said earlier, that’s the way it is