Indians For Guns

timmy wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:20 pm

The Remington 721 action is very strong and safe. It is very similar to the later Remington 700 action brought out in the early 60s.

I had one in 300 H&H many years ago. It was an accurate rifle.

Beside the normal checks that should be done when buying a rifle, such as checking the bore and barrel crown, the 721 has several issues peculiar to it that should be checked, as well:

1. The extractor. This is a weak point of the action, and was changed on the Model 700. Because of this, you cannot use a 700 extractor in a 721, and 721 replacement extractors are very expensive when they can be found.

The extractor is a small ring of spring steel that sits in a groove in the bolt head, which encircles the cartridge head. When the bolt is closed on a cartridge, a turned out edge of this steel clip snaps over the rim and into the groove of the cartridge case. When the bolt is opened, the turned out edge catches the cartridge rim and pulls it out.

As I said, if the extractor has a problem, it will be very troublesome and expensive to fix. Some people nowadays have the bolt machined to accept a Sako extractor, which would fix the problem, I suppose, but would also be quite expensive.

2. The stock is prone to cracking behind the tang, starting from the rear action screw. This happened to mine. Round receivers, like the Remington bolt action, are more prone to this problem than flat-bottomed receivers, like the M98 Mauser, 1003 Springfield, and M70 Winchester. Be sure to inspect this carefully.

A Remington 700 stock could be used, but inletting will need to be done around the trigger, because the safety of a 721 is different from a 700. This could be addressed by using a Remington 700 trigger, but the 700 has the tang inletted for the 700 safety, so the 721 tang would need to be similarly inletted to accept the 700 safety.

Also, the 700 rear sight is dovetailed into an "egg" or bulge on the barrel, and the 700 stock would need to be inletted for this.

3. Remington triggers from this era were known to discharge inadvertently, although I never had any problem with my 721 in this regard. These triggers are adjustable, and if someone has changed the sear engagement, the trigger pull weight, or both, unfortunate problems might result. The problem, from what i understand, was exacerbated by dirt. These triggers are in a stamped housing, and are not easily addressed by the hobbyist. I never had mine apart, so I can't give any guidance as to the process of disassembly and cleaning of the trigger.

You might try closing the bolt sharply to see whether the sear holds. A seller may not appreciate your rapping the butt on the carpet (as I did after adjusting the trigger).

These are nice guns, accurate and quite strong and safe. If the one you are looking at is in good shape, it would be a nice rifle to own.

Operator wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:57 pm

Thank you sir , helps a lot

timmy wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:20 pm

The Remington 721 action is very strong and safe. It is very similar to the later Remington 700 action brought out in the early 60s.

These are nice guns, accurate and quite strong and safe. If the one you are looking at is in good shape, it would be a nice rifle to own.

timmy wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:56 am

Operator wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:57 pm

Thank you sir , helps a lot

timmy wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:20 pm

The Remington 721 action is very strong and safe. It is very similar to the later Remington 700 action brought out in the early 60s.

These are nice guns, accurate and quite strong and safe. If the one you are looking at is in good shape, it would be a nice rifle to own.

I'm happy to add my 2 paise. I hope things work out for you. Please let us know if they do. There's nothing quite like the feel of nice steel and wood!

“All current owners of Remington Model 700, Seven, Sportsman 78, 673, 710, 715, 770, 600, 660, XP-100, 721, 722, and 725 firearms containing a Remington trigger mechanism that utilizes a trigger connector; and

All current owners of Remington Model 700 and Model Seven rifles containing an X-Mark Pro trigger mechanism manufactured from May 1, 2006 to April 9, 2014, who did not participate in the voluntary X-Mark Pro product recall prior to April 14, 2015; and

All current and former owners of Remington Model 700 and Model Seven rifles who replaced their rifle’s original Walker trigger mechanism at their own cost with an X-Mark Pro trigger mechanism.”

“Settlement Class Members may be entitled to:

(1) have their trigger mechanism retrofitted with a new X-Mark Pro or other connectorless trigger mechanism at no cost to the class members;

(2) receive a voucher code for Remington products redeemable at Remington’s online store; and/or

(3) be refunded the money they spent to replace their Model 700 or Seven’s original Walker trigger mechanism with an X-Mark Pro trigger mechanism.”

The trigger is a single-stage override type, but a somewhat sophisticated variation which results in one of the best performing triggers made. The entire firing unit, comprising the trigger and safety assemblies, is covered under U.S. Patent 2,514,981 issued July 11, 1950 (M. H. Walker and P. R. Haskell). It is fully adjustable, although the action must be taken out of the x k . Our sample rifle had a 3 lb. and .012 in. letoff, with .017 in. over- travel, exceptional performance for an out-of-the-box standard grade rifle.

The secret to this level of performance in a reasonable-cost assembly primarily involves a unique connector piece resiliently mounted on the trigger. Normally, unless the trigger ledge is perfectly sharp and true-an almost impossible thing to both produce and retain in service-the sear begins breaking before the edges are fully clear, resulting in a spongy and imprecise release. The Remington trigger connector, a hardened steel strip sandwiched between the trigger and sear, allows precise trigger function without perfect surfaces and a sharp and clean release without perceptible overtravel.

The trigger connector is held against the trigger piece by a small spring and thus is capable of moving forward separately. Trigger pull displaces the connector until the sear begins breaking downward. The overtravel-stop pin then blocks the trigger, while the connector, which has a small clearance hole, continues forward until completely out of the sear's path.

This basic resilient-trigger concept was first developed for Remington back in 1939 by John Sweany (U.S. Patent 2,341,299 issued Feb. 8, 1944) and employed in the Model 37 rimfire target rifle (Series 1939). The same resilient action was achieved in this original version, although the arrangement and shape of the parts were very much different.

The resilient-mounted connector has added purpose in this particular Remington trigger. Unlike most more recent swing-down designs, the Model 700 sear pivots at the front. It thus swings forward as it drops, requiring an increasing clearance. Were it not for the connector piece, added trigger movement would be required on that account for a clean release.

Two cross pins fix the trigger assembly to the receiver. The forward pin is also the sear pivot, and the rear pin the bolt-stop pivot and sear stop. A housing encloses and supports the remaining parts, with an opening to show sear engagement.

The Model 700 and 7211722 triggers differ in detail. Shape of the trigger shoe improved in the 700 version. The 721/722 shoe was thicker and ungrooved. The shoe (and trigger guard) were also set back for the sweep of the Model 700 bolt handle. Housing construction also improved. The 721/722 housing was folded sheet metal, with the adjusting screws working in partial threads cut into the opposing walls. This structure was dropped in 1962 (although reintroduced a couple of years later in the Model 600 series). The Model 700 uses the 40-X housing, a very precise and solid affair with the side plates riveted to three support blocks, each block housing an ad- justing screw.

In 1968, the sear also changed. It previously comprised two side-by-side pieces. The left piece was called the safety cam and was controlled by the safety. With the safety off, it moved free and so wasn't part of the trigger function. The right-hand piece was actually the sear, engaging the trigger connector but not the safety.

Except for using inexpensive blanked parts, this split setup segregating the safety and trigger functions into two independently moving pieces served no purpose, and in fact the narrow parts allowed greater wear. In 1968, Mike Walker substituted the present one-piece version which combines the functions of the previous two parts. It is a chrome-plated sintered- metal part, precision formed to eliminate the machining needed on the working surfaces of the previous blanked parts, and giving full-width contact between the sear and trigger connector.

It may seem suspiciously obvious that the two-piece system never had much functional purpose. This was, in fact, known at the time. As originally designed by Mike Walker, the sear was a one-piece blanking. During the final review of the design by Remington’s patent attorneys, however, a possible infringement of the sear-safety design of Winchester’s Model 52 (U.S. Patent 2,191,521 issued Feb. 27,1940 [H. L. Crockett]) was discovered. This occurred after considerable quantities of pilot-lot rifles were already in the warehouse awaiting shipment, and thus understandably caused some consternation. Phillip Haskell, who had recently joined Remington from the Aberdeen Proving Ground, was given the unenviable task of quickly finding a solution which not only avoided infringement, but equally important, caused the least possible disruption to the design and manufacture of the rifles. After several weeks of studying the drawings and the patent claims, he came up with the two-piece idea. While it may not appear a brilliant solution on the surface, it required modification of only the sear itself, and thus accomplished the intended purpose extremely well. The production line was modified quickly and easily, and all the ware- housed rifles were uncartoned and returned to the factory for rework at minimum cost.

timmy wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 05, 2023 2:52 pm

The subject of the Remington trigger on bolt action rifles is a very big deal in the USA. I did not want to get into the details of this, but as you directly ask about it, I will dive in and try to explain.

One major problem in sorting out the safety of the Remington trigger is that the anti-gun types will stop at nothing to outlaw guns. Whether this effort deprives one individual of a gun or bankrupts an entire company isn't the main issue with these types, although of course they are happy when their efforts affect more guns than fewer guns. They are totally unscrupulous and dishonest in their efforts to ban all guns, either one at a time, or many at a time.

Another problem in the USA is that most gun owners have certain political views just about as radical as anti-gunners. If a person of the wrong political persuasion were to tell many of these gun supporters not to step out into the street because a car was coming, many gun supporters would step out anyway in defiance of those whose politics they despise.

Then, there are the "experts" who know it all. Some call this the "Dunning Kruger Effect" after an academic research paper that found that the less people know about something, the more likely they are to think they know a lot. This is something readily seen in everyday life, unfortunately.

So getting to the bottom of the Remington 700 trigger issue is clouded by the very unproductive need of most to make everything a political issue, right down to whether one loads the toilet paper roll to unroll against the wall or away from it.

Matters are then made worse by know-it-alls.

A lawsuit was filed against Remington claiming that the trigger was unsafe. Remington, in the court action, settled without admitting guilt. This is who is affected by the settlement:

“All current owners of Remington Model 700, Seven, Sportsman 78, 673, 710, 715, 770, 600, 660, XP-100, 721, 722, and 725 firearms containing a Remington trigger mechanism that utilizes a trigger connector; and

All current owners of Remington Model 700 and Model Seven rifles containing an X-Mark Pro trigger mechanism manufactured from May 1, 2006 to April 9, 2014, who did not participate in the voluntary X-Mark Pro product recall prior to April 14, 2015; and

All current and former owners of Remington Model 700 and Model Seven rifles who replaced their rifle’s original Walker trigger mechanism at their own cost with an X-Mark Pro trigger mechanism.”

This is what Remington promised to do:

“Settlement Class Members may be entitled to:

(1) have their trigger mechanism retrofitted with a new X-Mark Pro or other connectorless trigger mechanism at no cost to the class members;

(2) receive a voucher code for Remington products redeemable at Remington’s online store; and/or

(3) be refunded the money they spent to replace their Model 700 or Seven’s original Walker trigger mechanism with an X-Mark Pro trigger mechanism.”

(Mike Walker was the designer of the Remington trigger used in the affected models of rifles.)

All of these triggers are similar and work on the same principle, but there are differences. For instance, if you look at a Remington 721 or 722, you will see that the bolt handle is perpendicular to the bolt body. On the later Remington 700 rifles, the bolt handle is swept back. This required that the safety be moved rearward from the 721/722 position on Model 700 rifles.

Model 725 rifles, which were a deluxe version of the 721/722, used a bolt handle swept back, but differently from the 700, and this rifle had a different safety, but the trigger was basically the same.

Some triggers had a two piece sear, that would be similar to someone cutting the sear in half longitudinally. Looking into the action with the bolt removed on rifles equipped with the two piece sear, it is plain that the sear is in two parts. The safety lever only blocked one of the two halves in this kind of trigger.

Some safeties blocked the bolt from being opened when they were engaged. Some safeties had three positions: one for firing, one on safe that blocked the bolt from being opened, and one position that blocked the sear but allowed the bolt to be opened.

But all of these triggers affected by the lawsuit operated on the principles shown in this diagram:


(click to enlarge)

Stuart Otteson is a well-respected gun smith who wrote two books on bolt action rifles. Below, I quote his description of the Remington trigger:

The trigger is a single-stage override type, but a somewhat sophisticated variation which results in one of the best performing triggers made. The entire firing unit, comprising the trigger and safety assemblies, is covered under U.S. Patent 2,514,981 issued July 11, 1950 (M. H. Walker and P. R. Haskell). It is fully adjustable, although the action must be taken out of the x k . Our sample rifle had a 3 lb. and .012 in. letoff, with .017 in. over- travel, exceptional performance for an out-of-the-box standard grade rifle.

The secret to this level of performance in a reasonable-cost assembly primarily involves a unique connector piece resiliently mounted on the trigger. Normally, unless the trigger ledge is perfectly sharp and true-an almost impossible thing to both produce and retain in service-the sear begins breaking before the edges are fully clear, resulting in a spongy and imprecise release. The Remington trigger connector, a hardened steel strip sandwiched between the trigger and sear, allows precise trigger function without perfect surfaces and a sharp and clean release without perceptible overtravel.

The trigger connector is held against the trigger piece by a small spring and thus is capable of moving forward separately. Trigger pull displaces the connector until the sear begins breaking downward. The overtravel-stop pin then blocks the trigger, while the connector, which has a small clearance hole, continues forward until completely out of the sear's path.

This basic resilient-trigger concept was first developed for Remington back in 1939 by John Sweany (U.S. Patent 2,341,299 issued Feb. 8, 1944) and employed in the Model 37 rimfire target rifle (Series 1939). The same resilient action was achieved in this original version, although the arrangement and shape of the parts were very much different.

The resilient-mounted connector has added purpose in this particular Remington trigger. Unlike most more recent swing-down designs, the Model 700 sear pivots at the front. It thus swings forward as it drops, requiring an increasing clearance. Were it not for the connector piece, added trigger movement would be required on that account for a clean release.

Two cross pins fix the trigger assembly to the receiver. The forward pin is also the sear pivot, and the rear pin the bolt-stop pivot and sear stop. A housing encloses and supports the remaining parts, with an opening to show sear engagement.

The Model 700 and 7211722 triggers differ in detail. Shape of the trigger shoe improved in the 700 version. The 721/722 shoe was thicker and ungrooved. The shoe (and trigger guard) were also set back for the sweep of the Model 700 bolt handle. Housing construction also improved. The 721/722 housing was folded sheet metal, with the adjusting screws working in partial threads cut into the opposing walls. This structure was dropped in 1962 (although reintroduced a couple of years later in the Model 600 series). The Model 700 uses the 40-X housing, a very precise and solid affair with the side plates riveted to three support blocks, each block housing an ad- justing screw.

In 1968, the sear also changed. It previously comprised two side-by-side pieces. The left piece was called the safety cam and was controlled by the safety. With the safety off, it moved free and so wasn't part of the trigger function. The right-hand piece was actually the sear, engaging the trigger connector but not the safety.

Except for using inexpensive blanked parts, this split setup segregating the safety and trigger functions into two independently moving pieces served no purpose, and in fact the narrow parts allowed greater wear. In 1968, Mike Walker substituted the present one-piece version which combines the functions of the previous two parts. It is a chrome-plated sintered- metal part, precision formed to eliminate the machining needed on the working surfaces of the previous blanked parts, and giving full-width contact between the sear and trigger connector.

It may seem suspiciously obvious that the two-piece system never had much functional purpose. This was, in fact, known at the time. As originally designed by Mike Walker, the sear was a one-piece blanking. During the final review of the design by Remington’s patent attorneys, however, a possible infringement of the sear-safety design of Winchester’s Model 52 (U.S. Patent 2,191,521 issued Feb. 27,1940 [H. L. Crockett]) was discovered. This occurred after considerable quantities of pilot-lot rifles were already in the warehouse awaiting shipment, and thus understandably caused some consternation. Phillip Haskell, who had recently joined Remington from the Aberdeen Proving Ground, was given the unenviable task of quickly finding a solution which not only avoided infringement, but equally important, caused the least possible disruption to the design and manufacture of the rifles. After several weeks of studying the drawings and the patent claims, he came up with the two-piece idea. While it may not appear a brilliant solution on the surface, it required modification of only the sear itself, and thus accomplished the intended purpose extremely well. The production line was modified quickly and easily, and all the ware- housed rifles were uncartoned and returned to the factory for rework at minimum cost.

As Mr. Otteson is a true expert and I'm not, I will let his discussion of the Remington trigger system stand without comment.

Now that Remington has gone bankrupt and its assets have been purchased by other companies, I cannot tell you whether any of these companies that bought Remington's assets were forced to assume Remington's obligations under the lawsuit settlement. I suspect not, but that would be something you'd need to research if you decided to go that route. However, there is no more Remington to deal with as far as getting a replacement trigger of which I'm aware. How it would work for you, getting such a replacement accomplished from India, I don't know, either.

There are a number of companies in the USA, such as Timney or Jewell, who make replacement triggers for Remington actions, and as I mentioned in a previous post, the Remington 700 trigger can be made to work on a 721/722. Reputable trigger manufacturers make good products, and such a trigger would be a good choice for someone who wanted to improve performance over a factory trigger, or for the person who simply didn't trust the Remington trigger. However, the likelihood of being able to get one of these replacement triggers shipped to india would be problematic.

Now, regarding my own opinion: As issued by the factory, I think that the Remington trigger is safe, and is a product that achieves good performance at relatively low cost. If someone has adjusted the trigger incorrectly, for instance by trying to make it too light or by allowing insufficient engagement with the sear, or both, then that would definitely be a safety concern.

Also, if dirt was allowed to collect, or rust was allowed to form inside the trigger mechanism, that would be a problem (as it would with the operation of most any device). I the trigger was lubricated and that lubricant subsequently hardened, collected dirt, or both, then that could cause a safety issue, also.

Summing up, I believe that if the trigger is in good shape, it is safe. If it has been abused or allowed to deteriorate, then there is a problem, but I don't think that this situation is much different than any other mechanical device.

Now, I've laid out about all of the information I can put my hand to for the moment. The question then becomes, what do you think of this and what action, if any, do you want to take on it? Certainly, google searches will turn up some more detail and mountains of opinions, if you wish to dig into it further. The bottom line is, if you are convinced the trigger is safe, you can choose whether or not to buy the gun. Or, if you do not trust the trigger for one reason or another, or even without any reason other than you don't feel good about it, you can pass on buying the rifle.

timmy wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:29 pm

Certainly! It is always my pleasure to advance the legal ownership and use of guns -- IFG's purpose.

After looking through all you have, it can be seen that the hardened piece that fits overe the trigger itself and forms the hardened surface that interacts with the sear that causes the problem: If dirt or something else impairs its movement with the trigger and the trigger spring is unable to keep it agaisnt the trigger, whether by dirt or sticky lubrication, or something else, it may be possible for problems to result. I have read that some disassemble the trigger and epoxy it to the trigger.

Personally, I wouldn't care to do this, but everyone must choose their own path.

Best of luck and let us know if you get the rifle.