Indians For Guns

Over on the British Military Forum we are trying to research the history of a very rare, if not unique, Westley Richards Monkey Tail rifle.
It has been restocked but most of the original mechanics are intact, including a tail lever of a pattern never before encountered. The export to India of British rifles was very rare in the 1860s, most were used by officers for hunting, but this one has some added markings which could provide some clues. Would some kind person hazard a translation and suggest where this gun might have been?
Kind regards, Rob.

Hello Rob, welcome to IFG. Could you please attach the photos to your post? There is an attachment tab at the bottom that you can use to upload your photos.

Well it worked on the preview

MtailRob,
Looking at 3rd picture the markings are not that old. What it basically says
On top: Number 611
Raj.(initials for Rajasthan) Pali(district), Jaitaran ( locality in Pali district)
So it is:
No.611
Raj, Pali, Jaitaran.

The last picture is not very clear to me. May be some other member will be able to decipher it.
Thanks

I could make out the one saying Pali, Jaitaran, but not the last one.

MtailRob wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:34 pm

Over on the British Military Forum we are trying to research the history of a very rare, if not unique, Westley Richards Monkey Tail rifle.
It has been restocked but most of the original mechanics are intact, including a tail lever of a pattern never before encountered. The export to India of British rifles was very rare in the 1860s, most were used by officers for hunting, but this one has some added markings which could provide some clues.
156.jpg
156 hyro'.jpg
156 hyro.jpg
156 4505.jpg

Would some kind person hazard a translation and suggest where this gun might have been?
Kind regards, Rob.

Hi MtailRob.
Are You from the Royal family of the Jaitaran area Rullers. I have spent more than 20 Years in Rajasthan and very frequent in Pali jaitaran Bar etc area. Also My work was involved me to travel all Small and big areas of Rajasthan. I would like to hear from you more on these weapons which belongs to the Royal families of our country.

Thank you, Pran.
Presumeably that is in either Hindi or Rajasthani, and it raises a few supplimentary questions:
When you say not that old, and in conjunction with my not being able to find a seat of influence in Jaitaran, no Maharaja's estate, official armoury - could you suggest some reasons why a gun should be marked in this manner?
Thank you, Vikram, for your help in getting pictures added to my post.
Dear Shivaji, Thank you for your interest. No I meerly run the Westley Richards Monkey Tail Register, publish and occasionally lecture on this topic. For a short description may I suggest you look at :
http://www.roaring-forties.co.uk/home/m ... il-history - I would be delighted to try to answer any supplimentary questions you might have.
Incedentally have you come across anyone who makes (not sells) copies of all metal Scottish pistols?
Kind regards, Rob.

Interesting history of the monkey tail WR gun, Rob.

Re the Scottish pistols you mentioned, this is one of the best known names.

http://www.rajasthanarmoury.com/pistol.htm

Yes, Vicram, but I wan't to produce a competition standard gun not a tourist repro, so I'm looking for someone who can sculpt a better, more erganomic grip profile, hence someone who makes, rather than a sales outlet.
Kind regards, Rob.

Aha. That was not clear in the earlier post. I think you would do better by contacting a member called Katana who has extensive knowledge of this region and its craftsmen. Let me see if he agrees to share his contact details.

MtailRob wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:17 pm

Thank you, Pran.
Presumeably that is in either Hindi or Rajasthani, and it raises a few supplimentary questions:
When you say not that old, and in conjunction with my not being able to find a seat of influence in Jaitaran, no Maharaja's estate, official armoury - could you suggest some reasons why a gun should be marked in this manner?
Thank you, Vikram, for your help in getting pictures added to my post.
Dear Shivaji, Thank you for your interest. No I meerly run the Westley Richards Monkey Tail Register, publish and occasionally lecture on this topic. For a short description may I suggest you look at :
http://www.roaring-forties.co.uk/home/m ... il-history - I would be delighted to try to answer any supplimentary questions you might have.
Incedentally have you come across anyone who makes (not sells) copies of all metal Scottish pistols?
Kind regards, Rob.

The serial number and location typically suggest that it may belong to a police or military armoury.

Hello Chengy,
There is one other example I know of with the very short, ringed, tail lever this gun has and that is a 1864 long range rifle with a "Creedmore" type sight [tang (wrist) mounted ladder with a cup shaped optic with variable aperture, adjustable for elevation and windage].
Whilst this sight is missing, and since its first restock evidence of its presence is also absent, there is a guide in that the existing ramp and ladder sight is only calibrated in degrees of inclination.
Such a gun might also have had a sight fitted to the butt plate tang for shooting lying down on your back. The owner would be of considerable means, whilst not in the class of "Best Gun" which cost some 27 guineas in those days; a British officer would fit that category, but I would have thought such a person would be unlikely to have his gun inlaid, so who would have the wealth and social standing to want to inlay in gold. Is there a clue in the gold text?
This all rather conflicts with the inscription "911, Raj, Pali, Jaitaran" - unless there was a system of registration not unlike that operated in S. Africa by District Magistrates. However no one has promoted that more formally than your suggestion in this case . . . although Pran80 did opine that the Jaitaran carving was not contempory.

MtailRob,
Give me a couple of days, I will check with a relative who owns a couple of gun shops in the state of Uttar Pradesh. I visited one of his gun shop in 2011 and it was filled with muzzle loaders. I was told that arms dealers from Rajasthan buy ML guns in bulk with well working specimens going for INR 100 a piece.
Let me check with the Gent and revert.
Regards,
Pranjal

Vicram, Pranjal, Shivaji & Chengy, thank you gentlemen for your help and interest.
In regard to the Gold inlay I've poured over the scripts of Lycian, Lydian, Ogham, Old Hungarian, Old Italic, Old Permic, Phaistos Disc, Runic, Shavian.
Adlam, Bamum, Bassa Vah, Coptic , Ethiopic, Medefaidrin, Mende Kikakui, Meroitic, N'Ko, Osmanya, Tifinagh, Vai.
Anatolian Hieroglyphs, Arabic, Imperial Aramaic, Avestan, Chorasmian, Cuneiform, Old Persian, Ugaritic, Elymaic, Hatran, Hebrew, Mandaic, Nabataean, Old North Arabian, Old South Arabian, Pahlavi, Palmyrene, Parthian, Phoenician, Samaritan, Syriac, Yezidi.
Manichaean, Marchen, Mongolian, Old Sogdian, Old Turkic, Phags-Pa, Sogdian, Soyombo, Tibetan, Zanabazar Square.
Abom, Bengali, Bhaiksuki, Brahmi, Chakma, Devanagari घ, ३, Dives Akuru, Dogra, Grantha, Gujarati, Gunjala Gondi, Gurmukhi, Kaithi, Kannada, Kharoshthi, Khojki, Khudawadi, Lepcha, Limbu, Mahajani, Malayalam, Masaram Gondi, Meetei Mayek, Modi, Mro, Multani, Nandinagari, Newa, Ol Chiki, Oriya (Odia), Saurashtra, Sharada, Siddham, Sinhala, Sora Sompeng, Syloti Nagri, Takri, Tamil, Telugu, Thaana, Tirhuta, Vedic, Wancho, Warang Citi.
Cham, Hanifi Rohingya, Kayah Li, Khmer, Lao, Myanmar, New Tai Lue, Nyiakeng Puachue Hmong, Pahawh Hmong, Pau Cin Hau, Tai Le, Tai Tham, Tai Viet, Thai.
Balinese, Batak, Buginese, Buhid, Hanunoo, Javanese, Makasar, Rejang, Sundanese, Tagalog, Tagbanwa.
and even the East Asian of Bopomofo, Han, Hangul Jamo, Hiragana, Kana , Kanbun, Katakana, Khitan, Lisu, Miao, Nushu, Tangut, Yi.
to little avail.
The nearest I got was Devanāgarī - I still think the answer is in India/Pakistan.

MtailRob wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:20 pm

The nearest I got was Devanāgarī - I still think the answer is in India/Pakistan.

It's decidedly Devnagari. It's just that age seems to have taken a toll on the engraving/stamping and made it difficult to decipher. I am sure it can be done and let's see if someone will turn up who can do it.