Indians For Guns

HI! came across a a very informative article on this topic and am pasting it below for the members. Keeping in view that the IOF may launch the .30-06 u can get a realistic look at what to expect



http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp

Accuracy Facts
.308 Winchester versus .30-06 Springfield

By Bart Bobbitt
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Seems to me that any time there's more metal contacting the bullet, the greater [the] chance that more variables come into play. Besides, folks who shoot highpower rifles the most accurate[ly] have very little case neck tension on the bullet anyway.

It's really easier to have uniform case neck tension by having it light in the first place; neck length doesn't come into play when this is how it's done. And ammo that's been handloaded [which is] then let set for several weeks or months will have a greater release force needed with long necks because of dissimilar materials bonding between bullet jacket and case neck/fouling. There's more area to bond when longer necks are used.

All that aside, lets go back to when the .30-06 and .308 were the only cartridges allowed in NRA match rifle matches. Both cartridges were used in barrels of equal quality as well as the same action and stocks by several top shooters in the USA. Both cartridges were used in matches at ranges from 100 through 1000 yards. Many thousands of rounds were fired in both types. Bullets from 168 through 200 grains were used with several powder, case and primer combinations.

In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges. By the middle to late 1960s, all the top highpower shooters and virtually all the rest had switched to the .308. The Highpower Committee had received so many complaints of ties not being able to be broke between shooters using the .308 and shooting all their shots in the tie-breaking V-ring, something had to be done to resolve this issue. In 1966, the NRA cut in half the target scoring ring dimensions.

At the peak of the .30-06's use as a competition cartridge, the most accurate rifles using it would shoot groups at 200 yards of about 2 inches, at 300 of about 3 inches. The 600-yard groups were 6 to 7 inches and at 1000 yards about 16 inches. As the high-scoring ring in targets was 3 inches at 200 and 300 yards, 12 inches at 600 and 20 inches at 1000, the top scores fired would have 90+ percent of the shots inside this V-ring.

Along came the 7.62mm NATO and its commercial version; the .308 Winchester. In the best rifles, 200 yard groups were about 3/4ths inch, at 300 about 1-1/2 inch. At 600 yards, groups were about 2-1/2 inch and at 1000 about 7 to 8 inches. It was not very long before the .30-06 round no longer won matches nor set any records; all it's records were broken by the .308 by a considerable margin. Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups. No .30-06 has ever come close to shooting that well.

At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two. If top shooters felt the .30-06 was a more accurate round, they would have used it - they didn't. In fact by the early 1970s, the scoring ring dimensions on the 800 - 1000 yard target were also cut in about half due to the accuracy of both the .308 Win. over the .30-06 and the .30-.338 over the .300 H&H when used in long range matches.

Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.

Military arsenals who produced match and service ammo in both 7.62mm and 30 caliber have fired thousands of test rounds/groups with both. They also found out that with both ammo types, the smallest groups were with the 7.62 by about 50 to 60 percent. M1 rifles in 7.62 shot about twice as small of groups as .30 M1s at all ranges. When the M14 was first used, there were some .30-06 M1 rifles that would shoot more accurately. It took the service teams several years to perfect the methods of making M14s shoot well, but when they did, they shot as good as M1s in 7.62.

There will always be folks who claim the .30-06 is a more accurate cartridge. All I have to say to them is to properly test .308 vs. .30-06 and find out. Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth.


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* Note
Mr. Bobbitt did not submit this article to Sniper Country, but rather to the rec.guns newsgroup on February 7, 1997. He has authored many postings to rec.guns, and is highly qualified to comment on a variety of shooting-related topics. Among his many distinctions within the shooting community, he once fired a 20-shot, 3.325" group at 800 yards! (Refer to the advertisement for Krieger Barrels in the May, 1997, issue of Precision Shooting magazine.) Mr. Bobbitt's other postings to rec.guns can be found by doing an author's profile on his name via the Deja News service. This rec.guns posting was acquired via Deja News (see the Deja News policy on materials posted to newsgroups).


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Why provide the link and then post the whole article ?

.308 win is more accurate than .30-06 spr because of the shape of the case and few other reasons according to tests and results of various target copmetetions all over the world

Switch to .260 Remington or .260 AI and beat the .308 to 1000 yards... plus enjoy lower recoil...

Beyoond 1K you really need something like .338 Lapua Magnum out to 1500-1800...
Beyond which... should you care... the .408 Cheytac .50 BMG or maybe a nice .200 MM will let you touch someone so to say. Accuracy... well minute of jeep or thereabouts.

Other centerfires of note...

0-100 6PPC or .30 BR (keep in mind that for point blank BR shooting a difference of .001 inches center to center can be the difference between a top 10 finish and a no where in the running)
100-200- 6 PPC
300-500: 6 BR Norma, 6 BRX, 6 XTC, 6-284, 6 Dasher, .260 Rem, 6x47 Lapua, 6.5 x 47 Lapua
500-1000 : Murky pick something in 6mm or 6.5 mm

No one is shooting the .308 or 30-06 competitively in BR. The .308 is waning in popularity in Tactical when compared to the 6.5's, ditto for F Class.
30-06... great hunting caliber. Accuracy.. forget it

I think that there is a lot to say for the idea that the neck plays an important part in this issue. For instance, the 300 Savage, which has a short neck, was long ago identified as an accurate cartridge, as were the cartridges that it spawned, the 250-3000, 6mm International, and the 22-250. Additionally, a number of accurate cartridges have been made up from the Soviet 7.62 x 39mm, like the 22 PPC and the 6mm PPC (through the 5.45 x 40mm Soviet round). I do note that the quality of the case, especially the uniform thickness of the neck and the perpendicular relationship between the case head and the bore centerline play a part here, too.

I would like to note that, back in 1935, the 300 H&H took the 1000 yard Wimbledon, which brought this hitherto ignored cartridge somewhat of a fad in the USA. Compared to 308 Norma and 300 Win Mag, it requires a long action and is about the same ballistically. The 300 H&H seems to defy all of the "common wisdom" regarding what makes a cartridge accurate: a long, tapered body (vs a short, fat one with straight sides) and a long neck. Long range shooters have moved on to even fatter cases, like the 30-378 Weatherby. Note that such cartridges take advantage of slower burning powders and longer barrels in specialized shooting situations, such as benchrest match and long range hunting.

I must admit, I am not completely convinced that case shape is quite as determinative of accuracy as some presently hold, e.g., that fat, short, straight-walled cases are inherently more accurate than long, thin, tapered ones. I won't say that this is not true, but for myself, I am not ready to say that it is.

To MoA's point:

30-06... great hunting caliber. Accuracy.. forget it

A lot still depends on the particular kind of hunting that is being done. For example, in brushy situations where knock down power is important, such as hunting large hogs in a swampy area, other cartridge considerations take precedence over long-range, pinpoint accuracy. However, in varmint hunting and other long-range situations, the hunting tends to approach the benchrest situation. In a competition, it is natural for a few or even a single solution to "pan out" as being ideal for meeting the requirements that are set down.

I always thought you made the 6 PPC from 220 Russian ditto for 22 PPC. At least that is how the people I know who these are doing it. It may be possible to reform from 7.62x39 but would be a lot more work.

I havent quite frankly heard of the .300 HH or 30-378 Weatherby being used competitively then again my experinece is very limited.

Hunting is a different ball game from BR or tactical shooting matches, no argument there. But if you do want stopping power, why not a .300 WM? Or even a .45-70 Govt? Argubaly the .45-70 or .300 WM will take any game in in NA or Europe.
As for Africa. well there I guess a .577 T-Rex would be ideal.
Do I like game? Yes... do I hunt. Well no... its easier to buy it off those that do.

You are right regarding the PPC rounds coming from the Soviet 5.45x40mm round, which is what I said:

Additionally, a number of accurate cartridges have been made up from the Soviet 7.62 x 39mm, like the 22 PPC and the 6mm PPC (through the 5.45 x 40mm Soviet round).

This statement traces the development of the PPC rounds back through the 5.45x40mm case and then further back to THAT round's parent, the 7.62x39. I'm sorry if this was not clear from my sentence.

.300 H&H was used to win the 1000 yard Wimbledon match in 1935. After it gained notoriety from this victory, US gunmakers began to chamber rifles for it. Other than that, you may have noted that my statement:

Long range shooters have moved on to even fatter cases, like the 30-378 Weatherby. Note that such cartridges take advantage of slower burning powders and longer barrels in specialized shooting situations, such as benchrest match and long range hunting.

discusses the 30-378 Weatherby in connection with long range shooting, and that my statement was purposely worded generically to address a class of cartridge. ( e..g., "such cartridges", i.e., those that are sometimes referred to by the term "over bore capacity" cartridges, which they were until slower burning powders became available to handloaders.)

Hoping that I'm not making an overly fine point, I'd like to point out that my sentence was crafted in such a way that I did not refer specifically to a cartridge being used in competition (other than the .300 H&H). I said what I did because I was attempting to point out that long, tapered cases or even just long cases are not for that reason proven to be inaccurate -- at least, I don't believe that sufficient data is yet available to make that point.

Regarding your notes about BR, tactical shooting, and hunting, the differences and similarities between them, and also cartridge choices for the same, perhaps this link might be of some interest:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/lo ... unting.htm

Hey I am no wikipedia or Carlos...

I shoot that is about it. I do have a fair amount of knowledge around a few specific cartridges, barrels and actions. That is about it.

I have exchanged a few emails with Dan's company, but that is about it. Never shot a barrel he has produced, too diffcult to import.

In any case... at least in Europe everyone is shooting 6mm or 6.5 for BR in thier various flavors. Other than the sniper challenge havent heard of anyone shooting the .30's either.

Peronally I am no great shot either. On good days I will shoot in the low .2's or high .1's... no where near a top 10 finish other than at club level.

One thing I really wonder about is something you brought up: wikipedia. Whoever wrote the piece on the 30-378 attributes its development to the US Army's request for a long range sniper round. But the development that the author outlines sounds different... a lot like a Polish antitank rifle and round that I've always been interested in:

http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/foreign/hem2 ... i/Wz35.htm

Tanks at the outset of WW2 would have been susceptible to these and I understand the Germans did get ahold of them. But from the perspective of our discussion, the notion of an "over bore cartridge" seems to be the case here!

Regarding skill level, I was never a Carlos either, but making do with my current eyesight has a double-edged consolation: it is as good as it will ever be, but it gets worse all the time. Enjoy it while you can. Regarding Dan, he apparently set up shop after I left the state. Had my life taken a different path, the sort of antelope hunting he describes would have been right up my alley. Sort of like giant rock chucks. I will try to get a pic of my rock chuck weapon up someday so that you can gauge the miserable state of my affairs.