Indians For Guns

Our member TC is a very bad influence on us all, especially those of us who have "weaknesses."

You will remember his recent fantastic post where he restored a beautiful little Remington Rolling Block wonderfully:

http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=22855

Well, today, Brother TC's recent efforts encouraged me to sin. My weakness is this: I love guns, and I love history. Because of this, I love guns that have history. (I feel I'm getting double value for my money!) For instance, I had long wanted an SMLE -- a No 4 Mk I seemed too new. SMLEs were the British battle rifle in both wars. The problem is that most of these are not in stores, but held privately here in the US. Also, they are chambered in .303 and the supply of .303 here is just about played out, except for some moldy surplus stuff that might accidentally go bang. When I had the opportunity to buy my RFI 2A, I could get an SMLE (sort of), I could have it in 7.62 x 51, which is very readily available, and I could have an honest-to-goodness Indian rifle with the Asoka stamped right on it! With Brother Moin, I could celebrate Indian Metallurgical science, too! I could pay for one rifle and get several things for one price, and hold history in my hands, as well!

Another weakness is this: back in the 60s, many of us here in the USA, as youngsters, were introduced to this movie called Zulu about the famous British battle with the Zulus at Rourke's Drift in 1879. IT turns out that the movie isn't tremendously accurate history, but no matter, it's a wonderful yarn to watch with spectacular landscapes and a great soundtrack by John Barry. And to young, impressionable minds, it featured that wonderful product of Britain, the Martini Henry rifle. Mention the Martini Henry here, and you will have someone mention the movie, Zulu. It's a huge favorite of gun lovers here. Of course, it made us all desire a Martini Henry.

Now, fast forward to 2004. It seems that someone in India or Nepal, I'm not sure which, was making a movie and wanted some old guns as props. Somewhere along the line, a fantastic story of thousands of old guns stored in a royal palace in Nepal reached the ears of a New Jersey, USA gun dealer, and this resulted in the gun dealer coming to Nepal and buying something like 55,000 rifles, brass cannons, old swords and kukhri knives -- some 41 40 foot containers full -- for $5 million USD. These were hauled out of the mountains and shipped to the USA through Kolkata.

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This amazing haul included all kinds of British arms from Brown Bess flintlock muskets all the way to -- yes, the amazing Martini Henry that I've wanted for decades.

There were lots of Martini Henry rifles in this lot, including early ones and ones made on the Francotte pattern (which I wasn't interested in). There were Gahendra copies made in Nepal. I had seen some of them and, as you can see from the youtube video, they were absolutely filthy.

Well, today, I happened to browse a site I had not visited for several years, and low and behold, there was a Martini Henry Mk IV "long tail" for sale at what seemed to be a reasonable price. I called the dealer and he said that it would make a good shooter, as it had a pretty good bore, and that it was all there -- not missing any parts. Because buying a gun here is nearly as bad as it is in India (even black powder muzzleloaders are considered the same as a modern gun), I called my older Son in Texas to see if he would take if for me.

So folks, under the horrible influence of TC, I've purchased this gun:



You will note that it is a genuine British-made rifle, and you can see the Nepali stampings on it. It isn't Indian, but it is from next door -- I hope you will understand my excitement, just the same. So, I got my Martini Henry, I got an almost-Indian rifle, and I got a real piece of history here. Can you imagine how many of those legendary Gurkhas have fired this thing over the century+ since it was made?

It will be a long time before I can show you pictures of me shooting it, as I won't even be able to lay my hands on it for some time. I will try to get my Son to send some pics of it when he gets it, which I will post here.

I have now confessed my sin to my Wife and trouble with the War Department has been avoided.

TC, you are thoroughly bad. I hereby sentence you to shoot this thing after I get back home to New Mexico and when you come to visit.

WOW timmy that's an absolutely amazing find!

Congratulations on being the proud owner of this valuable piece of history!

I am sure TC is adequately chastised now

Here is what the upload data says on YouTube:

This is a true "Indian Jones" like tale that examines the hunt to save the forgotten arsenal of the Royal Nepalese Gurkha Army. The cache was stored in an ancient palace called Lagan Silekhana since 1839. This film takes you inside the thirty year quest to save more than 50,000 antique firearms. This film is a must for Collectors of any sort, after all, it appeals to the treasure hunter in us all!.

Most antique weapons shown in the film are available for sale at http://www.ima-usa.com

The feature length film is available here http://www.ima-usa.com/film-treasure-is ... t-dvd.html

darn that man TC, Timmy have noting to do with him, he will soon have you skint. nice one that, go for it

Oh man, Timmy!
A long lever Martini! Very nice!
You'll have to find a red coat, a pith helmet and and some Britsh infnatry pattern load bearing harnesses.



http://www.martinihenry.com/zulu-wars.htm

Timmy,
Your take on TC is well justified....more so because "He is my adopted Son-in-Law"
Truly his influence on all of us has been 'viral' to say the least....
Now coming to your new acquisition.....my heartiest congratulations...what a find
The original markings gives it an additional value which all gun lovers would cherish!
The only sad thing is that "all these treasures" are now in the US
But then one hopes that people who are in their possession value it as any true gun lover would do!
Finally if "Inspiration" be the hallmark of perseverance, loyalty & pride of possession....my hats off to TC & You

PS: You better take xl_target's suggestion seriously....now go get yourself a Red Tunic & Pith Hat
and when you acquire these send us a pic donning them & of-course cradling the immaculate Long Lever Martini!!!
Briha

Wow, Timmy! What a find!! A real, honest-to-goodness Martini-Henry!

Now, as XL suggested, you need a red coat with a leather stock, a shako / pith helmet, cross belts, breeches and boots, and enough pipeclay and boot blacking to keep the leather shining, and you can go fight a few battles for the Ol' Empire..... Don't forget the spike bayonet!

And yes, TCda is a really bad influence! I found myself drooling over vintage WW2 knives and machetes on the net the other day after personally seeing the gentleman's collection. Thankfully my salary slip arrived over the mail just then, and brought me down to reality with a loud thump!

essdee1972 wrote:And yes, TCda is a really bad influence! I found myself drooling over vintage WW2 knives and machetes on the net the other day after personally seeing the gentleman's collection. Thankfully my salary slip arrived over the mail just then, and brought me down to reality with a loud thump!

Dear Timmy,
Having my name in the title of a thread so rich in history is a matter of great honour my friend. I am humbled and speechless.
And, for all the good reasons, I felt that lump in the throat as I went through your post... and the others that followed.

My first expression on seeing the outstanding piece of history was : WOW

This is the rifle that defined the course of many battles across continents and will always shine at every museum with a war section, no matter how small.
I saw it at the Royal Palace in Jodhour, Victoria Memorial in Kolkata, Salar Jung Museum in Hyderabad, more than a dozen Army establishments across India, The Police Museum at Hong Kong, Abdeen Palace in Cairo, Army Museum in Singapore and the National Army Museum, London.
But nowhere would they let me handle or fire it. For that, and MUCH MORE, I suppose I must start saving for a trip to New Mexico…. and Minnesota..and of course Richmond...

In 2004, I read in the papers about a cache of antique arms in Nepal being shipped to the US .... through Kolkata !!
There was no way I could do to pry open a crate in the middle of the night and sneak out of the warehouse. Might have done that

The rifle is in great shape and the markings are so clear. Its absolutely a treasure that I already started drooling over
I hope you remember that somehow I knew you would acquire the Enfield someday. So I hunted out the bayonet with serial number 587. Lets see if we can unite the two

Now I want more photos, videos and of course all the rest of the goodies


TC

PS: I am bad influence guys Follow me

Outstanding acquisition Timmy ! I'm speechless.....more so due to the dripping drool !!!!!

Gentlemen, thank you! Ha ha, TC, I figured to wake you up with a dire accusation! Thanks for putting up with my humor. Your sentence, BTW, does still hold!

I'm like a kid, even though I won't be able to touch it for quite some time. It arrives at my older Son's house on Friday, or so UPS says. I'm going to ask him to take some pics and when he gets them to me, I will certainly be posting them!

XL, you know I love that movie! However, to go along with the red coat and pith helmet, I also want to have a loincloth and those fancy leggings. That way I can be a redcoat or a Zulu, depending on my mood.

Now that reality is sinking in, I'm wondering whether I'm really crazy! These things are a handful to shoot, and not only from the substantial recoil I understand they deliver.

The Lee reloading dies are almost $90.



Thank goodness I have a Rockchucker, as one needs to remove the bushing in order to use these dies. The big fat 577/450 bananas Mr Martini shoots are too large for conventional 7/8" dies.

There are variations in bore size, so finding a mold will be an exercise in finding out what fits the bore. I'm seeing diameters between 0.464" and 0.474". Some guys use .45-70 bullets and paper patch them, which might be necessary, too.

Midway has Bertram brass that is $141 for 20 cases. :-0 However, the base is similar to the 24 gauge shotgun shell, and Magtech brass hulls can be resized to work. There is a penalty here, as some cases don't make it through the forming process. I found a guy who does the resizing and annealing needed and sells reformed cases. These are sold for $45.50 per 25 -- much more reasonable.


The big banana with 5.56x45 (223)

People debate whether these arms should have been sold. I understand that the Nepali government wanted the money due to the insurgency they were facing, and that a small portion of them were retained for cultural purposes. I think we can all see both sides of this story, but I jumped at this chance and I feel OK about that part of it.

I can see a number of our members wanting to "welcome" those containers into Kolkata! I had the mental image of Moin and Essdee stuffing their belts with Kukhris and looking like desperados.

BTW, yes, the pic I posted is of the actual thing I'm supposed to get. Does anyone here read Nepali? Maybe I should call Manisha Koirala.

I'm still investigating the hog hunt and thought how this would be an ideal toy to bring along. The slow bullet should do little damage. But there are many things that need to happen before this could take place.

Congrats Timmy Goo dluck

timmy I think from what I can make out - this image is very close to the one you have shared in your first post:



This image says: Enfield 1887 rifle refurbished at India's Kirkee Arsenal in November 1908 and then perhaps sent to Nepal?More markings may be visible on the buttstock to confirm this movement

CK, I think you are right. The pictures are poor and it will be helpful if my Son can get better ones. Kirkee Arsenal: This is near Pune? http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15533

I read somewhere that other arsenals were also involved in refurbishing these rifles for service in Nepal. I believe Rawalpindi was mentioned, but I suppose there would have been a few. One would expect Ishapore was involved, right? Maybe not. Anyway, as soon as the pictures come in from my Son, we will have a better look. Right now, the package is in Jackson Mississippi and it is supposed to arrive at my Son's on Friday. I'm very curious!

I found this American Rifleman article on the Nepali find, from 2004: http://www.nramuseum.org/media/363885/A ... 0Nepal.pdf It could take a while to download.

Timmy, that image of Moin and yours truly stuffing our belts with khukris has left me in a state of trance! Should have tried to raid the containers!!

The miniature cannon shell in the pic is a Martini cartridge? Now put a DumDum bullet in it and you got a dead "enemy of the empire", that too in pieces!

As far as I know, Nepali reads like a more angular version of Hindi (from my childhood coin & stamp collecting days). Except the accent and some verbs are different. The characters in the pic seems to be "ja", "va", (1st line), no. 16 (2nd line), the last line is very unclear. Might be the armoury or even the unit. Can someone suggest any unit / armoury in Nepal starting with J & V? "JV 1, no. 16".

One question, V R stands for "Victoria Regina"?

Thanks for the translation, Essdee!

About V R, I think you are correct.

I'm not a royalist at all and I don't particularly admire Queen Victoria, but the history of the whole business is quite intriguing.