Indians For Guns

Hi,
I have an Ishapore 2A1 made in 1968 and I wondered where and by whom it could have been used ? And I would also like to hear of any stories of their use

That's a nice one, tranter!

Thanks Tim !

Nice rifle you have there tranter - enjoy!

Here is some information on Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishapore_2A1_rifle

The Rifle 7.62mm 2A/2A1 (also known as the Ishapore 2A/2A1) is a 7.62mm NATO (7.62×51) calibre bolt-action rifle adopted as a reserve arm by the Indian Armed Forces in 1963. The design of the rifle - initially the Rifle 7.62mm 2A - began at the Ishapore Rifle Factory of the Ordnance Factories Board in India, soon after the Sino-Indian War of 1962.

The Ishapore 2A/2A1 has the distinction of being the last bolt-action rifle designed to be used by a regular military force other than specialized sniper rifles. Due to fluctuating supplies of affordable .303 British ammunition, the Ishapore rifles are becoming increasingly popular with civilian shooters and collectors in Australia, United Kingdom and the United States.

After Independance, India felt that they had few natural enemies. They had no territorial ambitions and just wanted to be left alone to build their country. Surrounded by the sea on three sides and the Himalayas on the other, they felt they didn't need much of an army as India's natural boundaries would protect them. A policy of being "non-aligned" to either of the sides in the cold war was also seen as a way to keep conflict away. Apart from some unpleasantness with neighboring Pakistan, it was not felt that much was needed in the form of arms.

Then came the shock of 1962 when the Chinese army poured over the Himalayas. India appealed for assistance, from the west, for arms and ammunition but no one seemed to be in a hurry to help in any way. Being a part of the commonwealth and being ignored by Great Britain in its time of need came as a great shock. America, the most powerful democracy in the world, for all its rhetoric about promoting democracy didn't seem to want to help India (which was the world's most populous democracy) with material assistance. The supposed good realtions being cultivated with China, at the time, turned out to be so just much hot air. These attitudes profoundly changed the way India looked at the rest of the world.

After the war, a need was felt to become self sufficient in arms and ammunition and not be dependant on anyone else. Either way, it was decided that a more modern cartridge, similar to what NATO had adopted in the 1950's was a better choice. Even the UK had started arming itself with the 7.62 X 51 cartridge. India had been making the .303 SMLE rifle for quite a while, so the infrastructure was already in place. To handle the increased pressures of the new round, the rifle used modern steels and was basically a new rifle even though it used the design of the already battle tested SMLE. At this time they also started reverse engineering the FN FAL (acutally they reverse engineered the British L1A1). After the SLR, as it was called, started being made in large numbers, production of the 2A and the 2A1 was stopped. Still, quite a few were made.

One thing I noticed is that a lot of people call them an Enfield. Technically, they were not designed and never produced at the RSA, Enfield factory.
They would be "Ishapores".

As far as units who used them; I know that some police units used them.
Maybe someone like Cottage Cheese or Jonah would have more details on specific units.

xl_target wrote:America, the most powerful democracy in the world, for all its rhetoric about promoting democracy didn't seem to want to help India (which was the world's most populous democracy) with material assistance.

XL: This covers what I understand about this affair. It is a quote from the book Nehru - A Tryst With Destiny by Stanley Wolpert:

Ambassador Galbraith had just reached London, en route to New York and Washington, and was fast asleep when he was called by the embassy and ordered by the president to fly back to Delhi immediately. The next day he met with Nehru, assuring him of American sympathy and military support whenever India requested it. But Krishna Menon was still unable to bring himself to ask for U.S. military aid, despite how desperately India's troops needed help. And Nehru was as yet unable to fire him. But on October 31, he finally did so when demands within his own party became universal, as was the clamor against Krishna Menon outside. After his dismissal, the United States flew military equipment and high-altitude gear of every variety into Calcutta from November 3 on, around the clock, until enough U.S. supplies to arm and cloth no less than ten Indian mountain divisions had reached India.

... As American military aid moved up the line, the Chinese realized that unless they withdrew before winter closed every northern pass, their victorious army would soon be doomed to death or capture. Beijing wisely opted to withdraw, therefore, shortly after Galbraith called for aircraft carriers of the U.S. Seventh Fleet to steam into the Bay of Bengal to provide air cover and support for Kaul's shattered NEFA Corps.

Here is an interesting article that also makes mention of the dispatch of a Seventh Fleet aircraft carrier to the Bay of Bengal: http://www.idsa.in/system/files/strateg ... n_0903.pdf

This whole business is not especially clear, and I'd like to look into it more. The impression that I get is that, during the Kennedy Administration, US foreign policy did try to engage India and John Kenneth Galbraith was the ambassador appointed to pursue that policy. However, in less than 10 years, the same Seventh Fleet was sent to the Bay of Bengal to "watch the proceedings" of the Bangladesh War in 1971, as Nixon had a strong dislike for Indira Gandhi and was not sympathetic toward good relations with India.

In '62 the British provided ammunition as the Indian Army was still using the arms that they had in '47. European countries (W. Germany I am sure of ......& some Norwegian countries ?) provided clothing that would prevent our jawans from freezing to death. The Americans flew in all the stuff.....probably providing logistical support to the Indian Army as well. Unfortunately Krishna Menon was not put before a firing squad......and Nehru continued till finally death rent him assunder from the PM's kursi

As far as the rifles are concerned,they are still in use with the police.Attended a funeral last week in which the salute was fired by a police squad with these rifles.....using live rounds

Yes this rifle is still in use by police of many Indian states.

xl_target wrote:After Independance, India felt that they had few natural enemies. They had no territorial ambitions and just wanted to be left alone to build their country.

I would disagree because the historical facts state just the opposite beyond any doubt. After the British left, India went on annexing one territory after the other which the British had left independent. Not only that, its political leaders broke the pre 1947 promise with the Sikhs and Nagas that they will have autonomous region within India. All this clearly shows that it had territorial ambitions as long as it could use its military might.

timmy wrote:This whole business is not especially clear, and I'd like to look into it more. The impression that I get is that, during the Kennedy Administration, US foreign policy did try to engage India and John Kenneth Galbraith was the ambassador appointed to pursue that policy. However, in less than 10 years, the same Seventh Fleet was sent to the Bay of Bengal to "watch the proceedings" of the Bangladesh War in 1971, as Nixon had a strong dislike for Indira Gandhi and was not sympathetic toward good relations with India.

There are many factors involved. It includes the true nature of Indian State and the role of KGB in formulating its internal as well as external policies, including the 1971 war with Pakistan. The U.S. intelligence and thus its Presidents were very much aware of this political game.

As far as 1962 war is concerned, it had generated enough panic and fear among Indian citizens as the Chinese Army was ferociously marching forward overrunning Indian defenses. Due to rumors that at this pace the Chinese will soon reach Calcutta, many people originally from other states, especially the business class started leaving Calcutta. It was only after Nehru sent SOS and response to it the Seventh fleet reached Bay of Bengal that Chinese halted.