Indians For Guns

Hi all,

I have been searching for old rifles for myself and my wife.

Among the weapons I am considering are a .318 Westley Richards or a .404 Jeffery. The former calibre is included in the Director General of Foreign Trade's list of cartridges whose import by dealers is permissible. The latter is not.

Both calibres were popular in Africa and India during the 1920s and 1930s.

Would members who have owned any of these rifles like to advise me on their merits and demerits.

Regards.

...and here we go again

winnie_the_pooh wrote:...and here we go again

IOF .315.....

Taking from the other thread, I would think the .318 makes a far better choice than the .404,unless you intend to go for an African safari.It ticks all the brackets, a classic rifle that stands apart from what is on offer mostly, ammunition is relatively easier to obtain, lighter recoil than the .404J, and VERY effective on a wide variety of targets. In fact, the brass could be made from .30-06.

I attach a nice little reading on the .318WR.

http://www.huntnetwork.net/modules/wfse ... ctives.pdf


Best-
Vikram

Vikram wrote:Taking from the other thread, I would think the .318 makes a far better choice than the .404,unless you intend to go for an African safari.It ticks all the brackets, a classic rifle that stands apart from what is on offer mostly, ammunition is relatively easier to obtain, lighter recoil than the .404J, and VERY effective on a wide variety of targets. In fact, the brass could be made from .30-06.
.....
Best-
Vikram

Thank you very much for your post, Vikram. I had seen the article forwarded by you a few days ago while searching the net for information on the .318.

Both the .318 and the .404 seem to be enjoying a revival of sorts, at least in Africa. Many hunters have taken to these cartridges in a big way. Kynoch have started providing factory loaded ammunition in these calibres.

Another calibre I had been considering buying is the .333 Jeffery of which there was one in the family long ago. Although Kynoch is providing cartridges in this calibre, both rifles and cartridges are difficult to obtain in India. I did hear of a rifle some time back but the dealer has yet to lay his hands on it.

I have been lucky enough to visit most of the African game parks but armed with nothing more dangerous than a 35 millimetre camera and telephoto lenses. I am unlikely to tramp the African game trails in the near future. If I do so, the .318 Westley Richards and the .404 Jeffery would come in handy.

Regards.

On perusing the reference ciited by Vikram one comes upon the following lines:

"Most oddly, a lot of .318's from Westley Richards had Metford style rifling. This of course led to worn and eroded bores after a lot of firing with Cordite ammunition. However, when peering down the bore of a .318, don't immediately write it off as irretrievably worn Metford rifling appears shallow and washed out in comparison to conventional lands and grooves, and it may shoot just fine."

Considering that most .318s have seen hard use in the field, has anyone on this forum experienced this problem of worn bores? Has it noticeably affected accuracy?

Regards.

My opinion of course, but the classic "worn bore" rifle can usually be made to shoot pretty well with a small amount of attention of one sort or other so I do not automatically discount a rifle that has a bore that appears to be worn.

Mark wrote:My opinion of course, but the classic "worn bore" rifle can usually be made to shoot pretty well with a small amount of attention of one sort or other so I do not automatically discount a rifle that has a bore that appears to be worn.

Thank you for your views Mark, based on your experience in shooting such rifles. I can appreciate that you must have come across this problem in the course of your wide and varied rifle shooting experience.

Looking forward to some hints on rifle shooting from you.

Regards.

It is my experience that hunting rifles rarely have worn-out rifling because they just aren`t used enough. It`s different if the calibre in question is a known barrel-burner like the 22-250 but most of the old loads were very easy on barrels. What is far more likely is throat and/or barrel damage due to corrosive primers .... but that`s another subject. I saw a Scottish built Martini actioned rifle with Metford rifling recently that dated from the 1880s which had an immaculate bore and rifling. You have to remember that the problem with Metford rifling was that it wore out with the use of cordite propellant ( it was designed to help prevent black powder fouling ) making the barrels unusable within 5,000 rounds ........ What .300 calibre hunting rifle gets 5,000 rounds put through it - especially nowadays ?
Mark is right re. not writing-off a barrel because it appears to be worn out. A good clean sometimes reveals that the rifling is clagged with copper and crud. I`ve seen .22lr Martini target rifles that appear to be smoothbore until the muck of ages is cleaned-out. Something else that should be tried with worn rifling is as many different bullets as possible - sometimes a bullet that is one or two thou oversize will work successfully. Sometimes a heavier or lighter bullet will work.
I have to say that all three calibres are extremely good at what they do - the 318 W-R has enjoyed a minor revival in the US in recent years and there are signs that the .333 Jeffery might also - it is undoubtedly the superior calibre of the two. The .404 has been used very successfully but don`t think it is comparable to the .416 Rigby because it definitely isn`t.
Frankly I don`t really understand why you would want a rifle in any of the three calibres because if the ammunition has very limited - or zero - availability you effectively have a wallhanger. .318 W-R and .333 Jeffery ( even more so ) are not exactly available `off the shelf` in the US even ( and definitely not in the UK. ) If you want a rifle that you can actually shoot one of the IOFs would seem the most sensible option by far.

Hi miroflex what about the two mote dump bores 250and 405 you have enquired.It seems you are good proffessor on old guns,rifles etc.Yeda ban kar peda khana.You have posted on this matter and you knew every ifgns can take pain to help his fellows.I amsure you have all the informations about what dealers have and whatt they dont have in stock.This is buissnes and i am not part of this i would like to be a shoemaker.against i wt i pros go u tnx

Grumpy, I must echo your's and Mark's thoughts on this matter.

The barrels of my military rifles are clogged with what seems to be centuries of crud and copper fouling. It doesn't seem to matter whether the bores are worn and pitted, like the Russian/Soviet ones, or bright, shiny, and sharp, like my Finnish M39: a cleaning session after an afternoon at the range will invariably produce clouds of black crud in the hot water wash and then, when the bore cleaner is applied, the green verdigris from copper jackets is also never-ending. Even sessions with the almighty JB Bore Paste still have not restored the bores.

I also agree that corrosive primers are a terrible thing, which is why I give a bath of boiling water and a bronze brush treatment to begin with, and then some Windex (window cleaner with some ammonia) to neutralize the corrosive primers of the military surplus ammo I shoot.

Another issue is improper cleaning: a steel cleaning rod may be indestructible, but shoved down the muzzle, it will ruin the most important part of the bore.

Even then, it is often possible for one to find a bullet and load that will shoot well out of even a hideous-looking bore.

But in India, our brothers will not have the luxury of choosing bullets and powders -- they must take whatever is available from the shelf, assuming there is ammunition there to begin with.

Also, there is no guarantee that a given bore will clean up and shoot well with any load. As the saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, and the only way one can know for sure is to take the rifle to the range and give it a try, and then try appropriate cleaning methods, and then take another trip to the range with, perhaps, different ammo.

The question here involves a much more extreme example of a question our Brother Herb posted a short time ago: He showed pictures of two classic and voluptuous bolt action rifles, along with a picture of a lowly brand new Savage with a plastic stock -- a real ugly duckling compared to the first two.

Most of us told Herb to take the Savage when he went afield. Herb came back with targets from his expedition to the range with the Savage, and as most of us knew, it came back with examples of wonderful accuracy for an inexpensive field gun.

If you want to get guns that will make others "oooh and ahhh" at your treasures, then go ahead and get a used classic. But if you want something that is accurate and reliable, along with available ammunition and probably the lowest cost in the end, get an IOF .315 or .30-'06 and be done with it. I'm sure your range results will echo such a decision.

Also, go back and review the African magazine articles Brother Vikram has posted for us. The high cost British rifles are the stuff of legend, even to this day, but the people who had to live and survive out in the bush were using little 6.5x54 M-S pop guns and getting the job done. The theoretical differences between a .315 or .30-'06 on one hand and a .318 WR or .333 Jeffrey on the other may actually exist, but I am sure that you will get the job done with any of the choices. Whatever drawbacks you must accept with the .315 or .30-'06 compared to the others will be more than made up by buying extra ammo from the differences in price and spending more time at the range.

Those exotic cartridges of old are wonderful things for wealthy hunters and gun owners, or avid collectors to discuss and even shoot. If you fall into that category, then my advice to you is simple: just get what you want; get what appeals to you. If, on the other hand, you have a budget to be concerned about and you must nail what you are shooting at, because you are on the hunt of a lifetime, leave the theorists who are gathered around the internet's warm stove in the corner to debate infinitesimally minute theoretical advantages of super cartridges or those of the hoary legends of yore, and get a new gun for which ammunition is readily available.

Spot on Timmy - you`ve just said it all. `If want want a rifle to admire and talk about but rarely shoot because of the unavailability of ammo, buy an old classic. If you want a rifle to shoot then buy an IOF 30-06 or .315`.

Timmy,
What you advice,mhas been said many times before by various members.
I think the OP is on the hunt for that mythical gun which in foreign made, accurate, cheap and has cheap, plentiful ammo in supply in india.
Wile everyone, including him knows that such a proposition is next to impossible, he plods on, wasting time and effort.
We indians have a bias for baahar ka saaman(stuff from outside india) and no decent IOF will do i am afraid.
Honestly, an upgrade to the IOF .30-06 from then.315 will be the best bet for the following reasons:
1. Ammunition available in different loadings.
2. Ammunition will be fresh, so the odd chance of being stuck with duds is less. Not that all old ammo will be duds, but the way ammo is stored here, you are taking a chance with old stuff.
3. Ammunition will be cheap.
4. Accurate rifle out of box.
5. Use the difference in costs to upgrade your rifle to what you need and make it into an extension of your body.

Again and again the stated purpose has been self defence but the OP has no clue about what he wants except that it should be 'foreign' make. From hornets to the big 400 calibres everything under the sun has been discussed.
The reason i mention the above is because i think it is reasonable to expect that you would want to be able to use your self defence fire arm effortlessly, should know its characteristics, both good and bad and have shot enough to utilize the good ones and minimize the bad ones. If you are too busy trying to find cartridges and having a perennial shortage of the same when will you practise? Dry firing can only take you so far. I might be wrong in this, but these are my views formed over time in anticipation of employing a fire arm for my self defence.

Gents,

We know this has been done before. However, the gentleman has a .315 already.It serves the purpose. However, he intends to change it and also get another rifle for his wife. He made it clear that he intends to buy a rifle in a make and calibre that is a classic and has some history.What seems to be the stumbling block is the price. if nothing else, the discussions are educative. JMHO.

Best-
Vikram