Indians For Guns

Dear Members,

Have searched the forum, but there is little gyan on buying a used 0.22 LR Rifle. I intend to use this rifle for matches. Requesting knowledgeable Ladies and Gents to throw some light on the issue.

The information gleaned from the web is that 0.22 LR barrels though can last forever, there is a need check on chamber/ throat damage. How to check chamber/ throat damage and any other issues that might need to be looked into.

Your valuable comments are requested.

Thanks & Regards

Ajit

17H, 22s can be quite tricky to buy, and this is even true when used. Target models have their chambers cut to very small and tight dimensions, where common 22s have a chamber that is cut a bit larger so they will feed whatever is loaded into them.

Famously, Ruger 10/22s can have nearly gilt-edge accuracy or be very average when new, depending on how worn the chambering reamer was when the barrel was cut.

The thing about guns is that they are like religion and politics: everyone has an idea and often times people think their idea is best for everyone else!

But, with that warning, here's my idea: In the old days, I would use a fingernail or piece of paper at an angle in the action to reflect light up the bore, to check it out. The bore should be clean and shiny, and the rifling edges should be sharp. Check around the chamber edge to be sure it has not been damaged by dry firing, where the firing pin hits the chamber and peens it.

But the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, as they say, and the best test is always to shoot it and see how it performs, if possible.

Thanks for the info Mr Timmy.
Regads

You also want to check the crown. There should be no nicks or gouges in the crown area.

Dry firing damage; this can vary from gun to gun. Generally on older .22's the firing pins can be delicate and can break with repeated dry firing. With some .22's, especially newer ones, you can do this all day with impunity but with others (even the same brand and model), you can damage the pin if it is just a bit too long. Also if the pin has not been heat treated properly, the tip of the pin can be damaged by excessive dry firing, resulting in misfires
See this post on a different forum. It has a photo showing the damage to the area around the chamber.

More .22 LR's are ruined by too vigorous a cleaning regime. Severe scratches in the bore will show as a result of this. As Tim said, the bore should be smooth and shiny. If cleaned from the muzzle end, it is easy to damage the crown if you are not careful. I prefer to use an Aluminum cleaning rod or a coated rod when I clean my .22's. I see stainless steel bore brushes for sale but one should never use steel brushes. Use nylon, bronze or brass brushes instead. Sometimes I use an Otis pull-through instead of a rod.
Unless you are a fanatic bench rest shooter, you don't have to clean the bore after every session.

Apart from that, as Tim has already mentioned, firing it is the best way to tell how it will perform.

Thanks a lot Mr Xl_target.
My further query is what are the other ways in which chamber of a 0.22 rifle can be damaged other than dryfiring. How to look for cleaning damage in a chamber? Barrel it might be apparant as a scratch.?
What to look for in a bolt to see whether it is serviceable.?

Check that it extracts reliably. Are the edges of the extractor sharp or are they blunted with use. If the edges are rounded, they may fail to extract a cartridge.

You are fortunate in that even a used rifle in India will not have had too many cartridges through it, even if it is old. Unless it belonged to a person who competed regularly.
Even then it is hard to wear out a .22 LR rifle. The soft lead used in .22LR ammo doesn't wear the steel of the barrel too badly.
If you haven't yet, read through Mack's post about the IOF .22 LR rifle and try to get through the thread. You will get quite a bit of info from there.

Thanks for the Info Mr. xl_target.

Dear Ajit,
Let me give you some quick tip in the Indian perspective as far as my experience goes.

1) When you are inspecting a .22 rifle with the intention of buying it take a long time to do so in natural day light (not suggesting sunlight in the open) if possible. Fluorescent lights fitted in most gun shops are inadequate and often create shadows. Take a friend or associate with you, someone who has knowledge in firearms and whose opinion you can trust.

2) Always keep a good cleaning rod, brush, patches and good bore light handy. Make sure the batteries are new. First take out the bolt (if it is bolt action) and thoroughly clean the barrel from the breech end. Then look through it from the muzzle end using the bore light from the breech. If you have an associate ask him to hold the rifle and the borelight steady. Look for damages like rings (concentric circle or circles that is/are created if attempts have been made to ram out damaged/old bullets that get stuck in the barrel). This is very common in India.

3) If there are no apparent signs of damage in the barrel check the grooves carefully. Do this several times because you may not notice something in your first attempt. Count in the eye fatigue factor. Ask the person holding the borelight to change angles if you think you are missing out something. Take rest and repeat the exercise all over again. The seller may get bored or irritated but tell him clearly that your satisfaction is more important.

4) In many cases, a damaged or old bullet (I mean the projectile from an old cartridge) can get stuck near the muzzle and the earlier user may have fired his next shot without realising it thus forcing out the first (or may be two such stuck projectiles) out of the muzzle. While this may cause rings, there is also the possibility of the muzzle diameter getting wider, a phenomenon called 'bell mouth'. So, alongside checking the barrel and the muzzle end for tell tale signs, keep a new cartridge handy. Hold the barrel at a 90 degree angle to the ground and place the cartridge into the muzzle. Ideally only the conical portion of the projectile should enter the muzzle and the rest stand out at 90 degrees. If the whole projectile or part of the cartridge case enters the muzzle or, if the cartridge stands at an angle, the barrel has been damaged.

5) Check the breech for damages using a good light and look for damages around the breech. Put in the fresh cartridge and see if there is any wobbling. Ideally there should not be any. Wipe out all oil/lubricants and make the breech dry before you check the breech. Hold the barrel at 90 degrees to the ground (muzzle up) and see if the cartridge fall out on its own. Ideally in a tight fitting breech it should not.

6) If you are satisfied with the barrel, inspect other parts of the rifle like bolt, trigger sights etc. Insist on test firing the rifle to check feed, ejection, accuracy etc. But remember, the most important part of any firearm ( or air arm) is the barrel because everything else can be replaced or repaired or tweaked. The barrel can't in the Indian context.
Before inspecting a weapon study it on the internet, check out schematic drawings, its various models, variation etc. The internet can be a great source of information when you don't have access to first hand knowledge or expert's advice at hand.

Hope this helps

Cheers

TC

Mr. TC, thanks a lot for the information based out of your own experience and making the effort to type out the whole thing.

Ajit, you are welcome.

TC

4) In many cases, a damaged or old bullet (I mean the projectile from an old cartridge) can get stuck near the muzzle and the earlier user may have fired his next shot without realising it thus forcing out the first (or may be two such stuck projectiles) out of the muzzle. While this may cause rings, there is also the possibility of the muzzle diameter getting wider, a phenomenon called 'bell mouth'. So, alongside checking the barrel and the muzzle end for tell tale signs, keep a new cartridge handy. Hold the barrel at a 90 degree angle to the ground and place the cartridge into the muzzle. Ideally only the conical portion of the projectile should enter the muzzle and the rest stand out at 90 degrees. If the whole projectile or part of the cartridge case enters the muzzle or, if the cartridge stands at an angle, the barrel has been damaged.


This isnt the best method of checking for the grooves or the bell mouth, is it?
I recall a discussion here where in the poster stated that with the variations in bullet diameter etc this method is vague at best:
Some more reading:
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=276435

Not authoritative, but i am sure more experienced members can chip in here.

Checking for bell mouthing might cause some confusion with rifles that have choked barrels - like CZs and Sakos - as the a bullet won`t enter very far.
Bell-mouthing can be sorted-out quite simply ( although by rather drastic means ) - and it shouldn`t be expensive to do so.
Crowns can be re-cut - again, quite inexpensively.
There`s nothing that can be done about a ring bulge unless it`s quite near the muzzle.
Bores can look tired and even pitted ( although it`s VERY unusual to find a pitted bore in a .22 lr ) yet the rifle may still shoot very well.
There`s nothing that can be done about a damaged chamber or throat without spending a great deal of money .... and only an expert with the right equipment can sort those problems out.
Timmy`s point about a peened chamber lip is well made. If the chamber lip is peened by dry firing a consequence is that there will be unreliable ignition - misfires in other words.
Chamber and throat damage is invariably caused by the use of steel cleaning rods or cleaning rods with steel fittings. The only metal ( other than lead bullets ) that should be allowed in the chamber, throat or barrel of a rifle ( of any calibre ) is brass. I`ve seen steel wire bore brushes - these should NEVER be used in ANY firearm. If a chamber/throat is lapped-out to remove damage/scratches the result is a rifle with very poor accuracy.
If at all possible, take any new ( to you ) rifle to the range and see how well it shoots.
I`ve no idea how many .22 lr rifles I`ve handled over the years ( probably hundreds ) and can honestly say that they are the least likely firearms to require major attention. The use of a low pressure, low velocity, lubricated lead bullets helps ensure that barrels will last a very long time. I`ve had 80 year old BSA Martini target rifles that will still shoot one hole groups at 25 metres - with the right ammunition - even though they have probably had hundreds of thousands of cartridges fired in them.
Good luck and take heed of the advice given.

This isnt the best method of checking for the grooves or the bell mouth, is it?

Arjun,
I agree. There are various methods of checking for bellmouths. I was only referring to the first and basic method that can be followed quickly by anyone without using tools. As grumpy pointed out bellmouthing can be taken care of by cutting off the crown. But in India that does pose a problem in restoration if the crown is rounded/oval. I have even seen people chopping off a good 1 inch from the muzzle end and re-welding the foresight to make a rifle look "authentic". But they could not create the crowns. But in case of chocked barrels in sports rifles like CZ, incidentally the most popular among sports rifles in India, such crude techniques can be easily detected by the method I suggested as the muzzle diameter gets wider after sawing. Gunsmiths do try to resize crowns by hammering in the crown using steel rods/reamers of larger diameter. But it can be detected too and the muzzle opens up after some firing. In heavy barrel rifles having recessed crowns gunsmiths do face the problem of recreating the recess because in India few people have crown cutters. I am saying all this in the Indian perspective where buying old repaired firearms is our only option.


TC

Grumpy,
I too have handled and fired at least two dozen .22 rifles and owned two. One of them was a "god knows how many years" old Martini action ! There are at least a hundred of them still around in my city, thanks to the legacy of the British Raj. Excellent rifles they are and I have seen one firing two inch groups at 25 metres even with a bellmouth that would gobble up a cartridge right up to the rim ! But I guess that does not prove anything in the context of the current discussion.
And talking of pitting in .22 barrels being rare you should have seen a Winchester a shopowner once showed me. It seemed the barrel was suffering from chicken pox
True, .22s require minimum maintenance (but that minimum is mandatory) and serve their masters for ages but in India the ground reality for gun enthusiasts is pathetic, especially these days. Threads on this forum speak volumes.



TC

TC I deliberately didn`t say how to specifically deal with the problem of bell mouthing because I`m worried that some of the characters on this forum might be tempted to carve-up their barrels with unfortunate results. Now you`ve let the cat out of the bag we can anticipate howls of indignant complaint from someone who will take a hacksaw to his barrel and then finds the rifle won`t hit the side of a barn door at 25 metres. Ah well - c`est la vie ..... IFG just wouldn`t be IFG without the bodge-up nutters.
Re-creating the original form of crowning can be difficult but it`s not necessary to do so. I`ve used a recessed bi-radial form of crowning for years .... and years - and always had excellent results. A touch of cold blue at the muzzle to hide the bare metal and everything is hunky dory. Crowning is an easy job that just requires time, patience and the correct tools.
Yes, I couldn`t agree more - maintenance of all firearms is mandatory....and basic maintenance is all that is required.