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Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:51 pm
by miroflex
Dear all,
I have been offered three .405 Winchesters in lever action and one in a double barrel form. I have yet to see the former but the latter is worn on the outside from being carried around but the action is nice and firm, even slightly hard to open.
Which will be a better type of action for purposes of home defence?
Regards.
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:11 pm
by Raptor
sir that totally depends on your threat perception level. Are you expecting a mob or a burgler or are you expecting rampaging rhinos? Is your house rifle friendly? Meaning big rooms with wide enough staircases and good lines of fire? What about cover? Do yo live up in the mountains/prairies or in a city? Have you had any experience firing a rifle? Once you have taken all these factors into consideration then look a the magazine capacity. Now, unless the underlever is a single shot weapon(i,m assuming this one is not) there is no point in paying through your nose for a DB, unless, of course, yer a collector. But my experience says if the action is a little 'sticky', what's to say that it won't disrupt your timing/concentration/peace of mind when you need it the most? That said , a guns action should be uniformly smooth, be that a BA or a UL. But there are wiser people on the forum. Let's see if they concur.
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:30 pm
by Vikram
I would think like this.
D.R-Two quick shots without having to take the rifle off the shoulder,possibility of a quicker reload.
L.A.R-Not as fast as a DR but lever action is not slow either. Again no need to take the rifle off the shoulder to work the action. Offers more rounds than two before reload.But, reloading could be slower than reloading a DR.
I think I would go for a lever action for home defence, if that is the only thing I have.
But, how fresh the ammo would be that you could get ?
Best-
Vikram
Best-
Vikram
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:47 pm
by Ruari
The .405 Winchester is not ideal for home defence, in fact it would be decidedly dangerous for the neighbours.
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:36 pm
by Safarigent
A few more points:
1. How many rounds do you think it will take you to acquire proficieny with the said rifle and will you get enough working, reliable ammo which fits your budget too?
2. A double rifle is usually around 4 inches shorter than a bolt action rifle of similar barrel lengths. Points better and the smaller length might be helpful if you are using it in the confines of your house.
3. What about collateral damage? If you are residing in a built up area and end up maiming/killing someone else, you will be in a lot of trouble!
There a few more concerns regarding the amount of flash it will produce(.405 win) in the dark, which might blind you etc..
Reading off the 'net, if the lever action is an 1895, it will also kick like a mule, with excess drop at heel and a thin buttstock.
Also, please see the rifling before you make a decision. No use everyone shooting off their mouths here and you buying yourself a smoothbore .405 double rifle!!
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:50 pm
by Skyman
I would take neither.The double would put down a security bot, and the lever action......wouldn't stake my safety on the gun.
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:47 pm
by Vikram
While the said calibre or type of rifle would not be my choice for home defence, we need to remember here that
miroflex is not a novice and has owned and shot a fair share rifles. I do think that he knows what he is doing or at least has given considerable thought to it.
We are all assuming here that he lives in a cramped urban environment and in a house whose walls are built with cardboard like in the West. He could be living in a fairly large independent house or a farm house or a house detached from the city/town/village etc.
Skyman wrote:I would take neither.The double would put down a security bot, and the lever action......wouldn't stake my safety on the gun.
Care to elaborate? Thanks.
Best-
Vikram
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:48 pm
by Raptor
Vikram wrote:
Skyman wrote:I would take neither.The double would put down a security bot, and the lever action......wouldn't stake my safety on the gun.
Care to elaborate? Thanks.
Best-
Vikram
it IS a rather odd statement indeed. One might even say i'm somewhat intrigued!
And sir vikram i have a question for you that is bugging me for a while now and i'd like your opinion on it. As you correctly pointed out that the theatre dictates or should dictate the weaponry. Now my question, sir, is this,'' is it better to choose a weapon that suits the threatre or is it better to adapt the theatre to suit your weapon?''. It is a purely intellectual excercise on my part, nevertheless i shall be grateful for any insight that you'd care to share .
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:58 pm
by Raptor
miroflex wrote:Dear all,
Which will be a better type of action for purposes of home defence?
Regards.
the type that works everytime one pulls the trigger would be my guess
sorry couldn't resist
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:08 pm
by timmy
I have owned a M1895 Winchester lever action (in .30-40, not .405) and make the observation that the m1895 action is big and not particularly quick to operate. As with any Browning design, it is smooth and reliable (if it is already in good working order) but in a home defense situation, I wonder whether you are going to have the opportunity to use the 4 round capacity.
Also, it is a heavy action.
The double rifle you are being offered -- if I am reading your post correctly, it is also in .405. It will be much quicker to fire a second shot, should you need it.
With the Winchesters, your only safety will be to leave the chamber empty or, if you have a round in the chamber, leave the hammer on half-cock. That's not a particularly ideal situation. The double rifle -- is it hammerless? If not, you can thumb the hammers back to bring it to ready, but if not, do you want to leave the hammers cocked all of the time?
My point here is that neither choice may have a good option for keeping loaded, but safe.
As you know, the .405 is going to plow through half of the town before the bullet is stopped, so I hope you have a good backstop if you have to use the thing.
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:27 pm
by Skyman
The win causes collateral damage if used in the confines of a home.The double would as said above, tear up much else besides the intended target.I would not trust an old lever action in that caliber to be an effective choice for home defense either.Too many things that might go wrong.Double over the lever action.I have read lever actions tend to weaken with age.
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:41 pm
by winnie_the_pooh
Microflex,
Getting .405 ammo would be a problem.When it (ammo) is available,it is expensive,generally old and of doubtful reliability.If your need is served by a rifle,I would suggest the IOF 30-06 or even the IOF .315.Eventually,any firearm is better than none.
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:27 am
by Raptor
Skyman wrote:Double over the lever action.I have read lever actions tend to weaken with age.
how so?
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:30 am
by xl_target
Since you stated that the use would be for home defense, my recommendation would be nothing in that caliber unless you plan to defend against thin skinned dangerous game.
When used inside the home, it is going to have a really nasty effect on both the user and whatever it is going to be used against. Eardrum Rupture is something to consider. It will also completely penetrate a man sized target putting people on the other side (or in other rooms) in danger. This cartridge, no matter what rifle it is used in, is serious overkill for home defense.
All the issues you read about, on US websites, about wall penetration don't necessarily apply to India. Please remember that the poured concrete walls generally found in Indian houses are significantly different from US stick built houses. A soft nose bullet, might not penetrate the wall but I wouldn't want to take a chance of standing on the other side of it. Collateral damage to others could be an issue but it is not as great as it would be in the US. If used indoors, with concrete walls, you have another issue to worry about. If the bullet hits the wall at a shallow angle, you could have a ricochet in the room which could now put you and family members at risk.
For home defense, a shotgun would serve your purposes quite a bit better than a rifle, especially one that only ammunition of uncertain vintage and quality is available for.
Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:37 am
by miroflex
I'm overwhelmed by the very generous response to my query. I will try to respond to the points arising from the posts in serial order.
I know I seem to be going against the advice I gave to fellow member Chandrasekhar on another thread.
Hello Chandrashekhar,
The power comes from the cartridge the rifle is chambered for rather than the rifle itself. A double barreled rifle is as powerful as a single barreled rifle of the same bore or calibre say .375 Express or .450/400. Most double barreled rifles are chambered for rimmed cartridges which are rarely imported into India. Cartridges for double rifles are therefore expensive and difficult to obtain, Double barreled rifles were popular for hunting dangerous game like tigers because they offered a quick second shot without having to change the position of one's hand to operate a bolt or a lever for the second shot. Thereafter one has to open the double barreled rifle to reload. A bolt or lever action rifle can offer six (one round in the chamber and five in the magazine) or more shots before reloading. Such rifles are more useful than double barreled rifles in self defence situations.
The double barreled rifles for which cartridges are obtainable, like the .375 Holland and Holland magnum, the .450/400 etc. are much too powerful for self defence purposes. They are also likely to be very expensive. A 7x57 mm Mauser is more than adequate for self defence. Cartridges for medium bores like the .30-06 and the .315 are made by the Indian Ordnance Factory (IOF) in their Kirkee Factory (KF) near Pune and are cheaper and easily available. The IOF made rifles in .30-06 and .315 calibres are cheaper than imported rifles in equivalent calibres (under a lakh of Rupees against three lakhs or more).
The cheapest double rifle I have been offered is a .500 Black Powder Express with external hammers and Damascus barrels for Rs. 2 lakh. Cartridges for this rifle are almost unobtainable in India.
You pays your money and takes your choice.
All the best.
Regards.