Indians For Guns

Prominent armies have extensively trained snipers, especially the Americans,British,Ruskies and others.I have never heard of Indian Army snipers, have heard of " Sharpshooters accurate to 200 yards ", what is the situation exactly?

Thanks

The Dragunov is an old work horse with the army. Unfortunately neither defense arm or even para military set ups, apart from the NSG and SFs (Parachute Regiment), have realized the importance sniping in warfare. I hope I'm wrong but they are just not up to date with developments in this field world wide. In fact, long range sniping with modern and contemporary weaponry may not be part of the Army's doctrine. Or, it may be babudom restricting it's (weaponry) induction either by way of importation of these weapons or an impotent DRDO.

BTW, their snipers are called 'designated marksmen', not snipers.

There is a longer barreled and bipod stabilsed version of the INSAS, but I'm not sure if it really got commissioned into the army. However, 5.56mm will not do justice to long range sniping. Not worth it.

It is high time that Indian army get 50 cal sniper rifles.

let em start with a 308 or 338 lapua.

Since I have the opportunity to spend some time with our armed forces I can throw some light..

The special units of the army... the para commandos, marine commandos and units posted in sensitive areas have used / use the following weapons

Heckler and Koch PSG 1 - (used extensively during operation Blue Star way back in the 80s and the Mumbai attack)

303 Enfied (please don't laugh guys, six months after Kargil I was on board a Navy ship {cant tell here which one} where marksmen were posted on the deck with 303s and binoculars to spot and shoot at floating mines)

Recently procured 50 cal rifles from Israel... (Bhargav should be happy )

A few FN FALs fitted with scopes as an experiment. The Army loved it because they still love the FAL.

Some Draguvovs though ammo remains an issue. I saw them being used along the LOC in Kashmir.

Our armed forces officers and soldiers have a strong liking for the 7.62 (over other medium calibers) for long range use.

TC

...don't forget the significant number of IWI Galatz 7.62mmx51mm Rifles with the Army SF/Paras, Mauser SP86's in small numbers with the Army (Don't know what units though), Steyr-Mannlicher SSG69's with the BSF, and of course supplementary H&K MSG-90's with the NSG and some state police forces and a sprinkling of SVD-S's (at least with the MARCOS)

TC, any idea what became of the Denel anti-material rifles... ever since that mini scandal?

regards,
cc

TC wrote:
303 Enfied (please don't laugh guys, six months after Kargil I was on board a Navy ship {cant tell here which one} where marksmen were posted on the deck with 303s and binoculars to spot and shoot at floating mines)

We won't laugh. After all, the venerable 303 with a scope was used by the British as a sniper weapon in two world wars

It occurs to me that while some nations allocate significant resources towards sniper rifle training, we mainly focus on assault rifles.

TC wrote:Since I have the opportunity to spend some time with our armed forces I can throw some light..

The special units of the army... the para commandos, marine commandos and units posted in sensitive areas have used / use the following weapons

Heckler and Koch PSG 1 - (used extensively during operation Blue Star way back in the 80s and the Mumbai attack)

303 Enfied (please don't laugh guys, six months after Kargil I was on board a Navy ship {cant tell here which one} where marksmen were posted on the deck with 303s and binoculars to spot and shoot at floating mines)

Recently procured 50 cal rifles from Israel... (Bhargav should be happy )

A few FN FALs fitted with scopes as an experiment. The Army loved it because they still love the FAL.

Some Draguvovs though ammo remains an issue. I saw them being used along the LOC in Kashmir.

Our armed forces officers and soldiers have a strong liking for the 7.62 (over other medium calibers) for long range use.

TC

Thanks for the info TC. All I am saying is, Indian army should be at par with all other armies.

yes they do, some are made near jabalpur

Friends,
Whether, the Indian Army uses sniper rifles or not, or whether they have or they do not have a doctrine, is known only to them. And that is precisely how it should be, I dont think the man on the street needs to know, where, why and how the Indian Army is using what to tackle whom?
Western motion picture makers have glamorised the sniper and his craft, depicting european , american snipers as celluloid heroes. This does not mean that Indian Armed Forces are not up to the mark. Some times the less we know the better on specifics regarding our capabilities. Better that the lay man and the enemy feel that we NOT capable, till they get a very unpleasant surprise.

sorry to condradict but if we had had good snipers during mumbai atack they would have been deadly. Unfortunetly our Army is losing all its good officers to civil life and money and planning is not beong done on the right track'
regrads
Jerry

i concur.

Well the Indian Army does deploy sniper equipment and so do special forces for sure.

However what separates one Army's snipers from another is not so much as the equipment as the military doctrine concerning them. This is essentially because the equipment is selected based on its suitability to the doctrine rather than other way round.

The modern Soviet/Russian army deploys squad level snipers and these are designated as 'marksmen' or 'sharpshooters'. They are utilized primarily to extend the effect accurate fire range of a squad beyond the 300 meters which a normal assault rifle is capable of. In urban scenarios they are used for their disruptive ability and of course taking down valuable targets like officers which can be hard to replace. The snipers are generally the best shots within the unit and they advance or retreat as part of the unit and are as such tied to the command structure.

The US military doctrine makes for a much more varied battle field application in that the sniper team (sniper + spotter) is pretty much a self sufficient unit and is only loosely connected to the rest of the command structure. In open battlefields s a US sniper unit can be quiet far from other units in the area and this necessitates those 1 mile shots that are really unheard of in the Russian scenario where at most a sniper is expected to operate at 800 meters with his rapid fire SVT.

For more details on US doctrine members can refer to US Army's field manual 23-10, Sniper Training and USMC field manual 1-3b Sniping. I do not have details of similar Russian or Indian documents.

Needless to say our sniper doctrine is quiet close to the Russian doctrine in terms of training, deployment and tactics.

hvj1 wrote:Friends,
Whether, the Indian Army uses sniper rifles or not, or whether they have or they do not have a doctrine, is known only to them. And that is precisely how it should be, I dont think the man on the street needs to know, where, why and how the Indian Army is using what to tackle whom?
Western motion picture makers have glamorised the sniper and his craft, depicting european , american snipers as celluloid heroes. This does not mean that Indian Armed Forces are not up to the mark. Some times the less we know the better on specifics regarding our capabilities. Better that the lay man and the enemy feel that we NOT capable, till they get a very unpleasant surprise.

I completely agree...

Thanks for the info TC. All I am saying is, Indian army should be at par with all other armies.

Rest assured our Army is much better. I know of three joint exercises where our boys had given US Marines, Israeli special forces and last but not the least the French Legion a run for their money. And I am not talking of war exercises using aircraft, tank etc. These were all tests of the human body and mind... One of them was held deep inside the jungles in North East.
If there is anything that comes between our boys and the enemy then it is our bureaucracy and political system.

We won't laugh. After all, the venerable 303 with a scope was used by the British as a sniper weapon in two world wars

I didn't laugh at all when I was on that ship. I just love the 303. In fact I wrote exactly what you have written in XL Targets thread on Canadian Rangers using the 303 Enfield to control the bear population.

...don't forget the significant number of IWI Galatz 7.62mmx51mm Rifles with the Army SF/Paras, Mauser SP86's in small numbers with the Army (Don't know what units though), Steyr-Mannlicher SSG69's with the BSF, and of course supplementary H&K MSG-90's with the NSG and some state police forces and a sprinkling of SVD-S's (at least with the MARCOS)

TC, any idea what became of the Denel anti-material rifles... ever since that mini scandal?

regards,

Cottage Cheese, our forces have procured many small arms from many sources over the years without many people ever knowing why they were procured in the first place and what became of them. I have mentioned only those that were used more than the rest. There could be many more about which we are still in the dark. The process of procuring small arms is a very convoluted and at times corrupted process because the amount of money involved is less than what it takes to buy a plane and hence it is easier to escape public attention. You have mentioned one. The last I heard about the anti-material rifle is that the government was talking to a different vendor.

TC