Indians For Guns

Hi, would like to start a topic discussion on obsolete calibered rifles, to share and gain konwledge of them. is this the right place.
The caliber that really facinates me is the .240apex that came from holland & holland. I have empty shells lying around, the rifle was an H&H manfactured which my dad sold way back in the 90's and bought an FN browning .375h&h. one of the finest calibers performance wise for it period. I wish my dad had kept it, though the obvious reasons were licence limitations and amo avalbility. the amo was produced by Kynoch.
The rifle too was a good lookin one. then i could not diffrentiate between the mauser 98k and the Holland .240 when kept side by side as the holland was based on the 98k model, both had express sights and front moon sights.

more info on the caliber....

The .240 Apex

By Chuck Hawks



The "Roaring 20's" saw the birth of a special Holland & Holland creation, the .240 Apex (or .240 Magnum Rimless). This smaller belted magnum pretty much duplicated the performance of the much later .243 Winchester. No small feat given the limitations of the smokeless powders used by the British in 1920.

The .240 Apex was a belted rimless cartridge intended for use in repeating rifles. There was also a rimmed version, the .240 Magnum Flanged, designed for use in double rifles.

These are smaller cartridges than the .244 H&H Magnum, but still contain a worthwhile quantity of powder. The case of the .240 is about the same length as the 6mm-06, but a little smaller in diameter. Loaded to the same pressure with modern powder the .240 Apex has the potential to exceed the performance of the modern .243 WSSM.

The .240 case is of typical belted rimless configuration with a sharp shoulder and moderate body taper. Only its long neck (a plus!) reveals its age. The rim diameter is .467", the base diameter ahead of the belt .450", and the shoulder diameter .403". This case is 2.49" long and the COL is 3.21" long. Bullet diameter is given as .245 in Cartridges of the World.

The original factory ballistics call for a 100 grain bullet at a MV of 2900 fps and ME of 1870 ft. lbs. At 200 yards the factory figures are 2445 fps and 1330 ft. lbs. This was achieved by 40 grains of an unspecified and undoubtedly obsolete smokeless powder.

If a 100 grain Speer Grand Slam bullet with a BC of .351 were substituted for the original British Copper Point bullet the trajectory would look like this: +2.6" at 100 yards, +3" at 135 yards, +1.8" at 200 yards, -3" at 278 yards, and -5.2" at 300 yards. Thus the maximum point blank range of that load (+/- 3") is 278 yards.

According to the "Expanded Optimal Game Weight Table" that load should be effective on small 100 pound CXP2 class game at a maximum optimum distance of slightly over 400 yards. For large CXP2 class game weighing 200 pounds the maximum optimum range is 210 yards. It may be old, but there are no flies on the .240 Apex as a deer and antelope cartridge!

Why the .240 Apex did not achieve the world wide popularity enjoyed today by the .243 Winchester is anybody's guess. The .240 Apex cartridges I have seen were loaded with relatively blunt semi-spitzer bullets, which would not have helped the cartridge's downrange performance. Probably it was just too far ahead of its time, much like the .350 and 6.5mm Remington Short Magnums when they were introduced in the 1960's.

Note: An article about the .244 H&H Mag. and the .240 Apex can be found on the Rifle Cartridge Page.

cheers

When one thinks of obsolete calibers, especially in the light of India's glorious history with firearms, three names immediately come to mind:

The 577 Reva

476 Westley Richards Nitro Express

465 H & H

410 Indian Musket
These cartridges bore the distinct mark of being specifically developed by Indians or for India.

The 577 Reva is a necked down version of the 600 Nitro Express and was considered for a long while as the most powerful cartridge on the planet.

The 476 Westley Richards 3/4' Nitro Express was specifically to replace the 450 which the British banned in India to prevent rebels from acquiring this ammo

The 465 H & H is well known as a substitute for the 470 which was developed by Rigby and the 465 was Holland's answer to this, also known as the 465 India, the 470 being more considered as an Africa cartridge

The 410 Indian Musket was a military caliber especially developed for the British Indian Army

Pls also refer to http://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?t=3903

My all times favor 416 Rigby in the middle of 45-70 and 416 Weatherby Mag



The cartridge is like 3 3/4 inch long , crazy hah .....

Hammerhead,

.416 Rigby is not obsolete either.Many modern makers still chamber their big game rifles for the venerable cartridge. It is my favourite.

Wasn't listed on the top list so I added it on the bottom here

Edit : If you carefully look at the rifle cartridges from #40,41,42,43 and #44 you will notice how better Japanese 7.7 X 58 MG was than #41 303 British. That much better their equipment was and so much the rifle Ariska's but still they lost it. And it was rimless that time, so much better feeding in MG's - Haji

The .465 thats a caliber, propels a 480gr at 2375fps...that would be quite flat shooting for its weight.

Great thread,Pritu.I would love to hear more from your experiences.There was an H&H Apex for sale by a member here a while ago.Someone lucky bought it.I am sure, if you look around,you can get one at a reasonable price.

However, the .240 Apex AKA Belted Nitro Express is not obsolete. It is available from Kynoch,UK.Even the flanged version for the single/double rifles is available.


Hammerhead,

.416 Rigby is not obsolete either.Many modern makers still chamber their big game rifles for the venerable cartridge. It is my favourite.

Keep it going,gents.

Best-
Vikram

I very much want to buy a .410 Indian musket as built on a SMLE action. I'd prefer one that has not been modified, as many have, to take the standard .410 shotshell, but prefer one in the original chambering based on the .303 cartridge.

One favorite of mine is the 300 H&H. I suppose it is rather outmoded by cartridges of similar or superior performance that don't require a long action, but I like the cartridge anyway.

yes the .300 h&h was a necked down .375 mag case to fit a .308 projectile, but .300 h&h was a base for most of the recent .300. The .300 weatherby mag is also based on it.
.300 H&H gave way for .300 win mag and the winchester short mag.
Another one is a favourite amongst most Indian enthusiasts is the .250-3000 savage, which is based on the .30-06 spr case, necked down and shortened which drove a 87gr bullet to 3000fps which was a first. The old brass is still being used for reloads out here, though fresh .250 sav rounds are still available in the US.

For any India connection - what about the .476 Eley/ Enfield revolver cartridge? This led to the development of the (later) .455 Webley cartridge. Or the .577/450 Martini, which saw action during a few of the colonial wars?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

That much better their equipment was and so much the rifle Ariska's but still they lost it.

The Type 99 Arisaka Rifle better than the SMLE? I most assuredly cannot agree with such an assertion. The SMLE was the best bolt action battle rifle, period. In the British retreat from Mons in 1914, the Germans thought they were facing machine guns, when all they were actually facing were well trained British troops with SMLEs. Try that with an Arisaka? Hardly. Yes, they are strong, but they are also quite clumsy, where a SMLE is slick, smooth, lightning fast, and has a 10 round magazine.

Going down a list of any Japanese war materiel will produce some very competent equipment, but more often than not, that equipment will be quite lacking compared to that of other major combatants. Japan simply didn't have the industrial base or, at the time, the engineering base to support better equipment.

Or the .577/450 Martini, which saw action during a few of the colonial wars?

Undoubtedly!!! Another great arm, the Martini-Henry, and a great cartridge as well. In my mind, the Martini-Henry was the best single shot military rifle of the 1870-1885 era, and the cartridge was a great one, as well.

Undoubtedly!!! Another great arm, the Martini-Henry, and a great cartridge as well. In my mind, the Martini-Henry was the best single shot military rifle of the 1870-1885 era, and the cartridge was a great one, as well.

While the MH was a great rifle for its time, the Trapdoor Springfied was no slouch and would probably give it a good run for that title. A couple of weeks ago, I was at my gun club and a guy I knew showed up with a Trapdoor Springfield. He let me rattle off a few rounds with it. I was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to load and shoot fast with the Trapdoor. The cartridge ejection was surprisingly positive. Once the trapdoor was opened, the cartridge casing disappeared so fast, I never got a chance to see where it went. The next time I opened the trapdoor, I tried to keep my eye on it and ..."ping",... it was gone just as fast. I was also surprised at how balanced it was when shooting from a standing position. The trigger was surprisingly good too. With its relatively light weight (for a military rifle of the time) and its steel buttplate, I expected the recoil to be nasty. It was surprisingly mild, at least when compared to a .45-70 Lever Action.
While the MH's early rolled brass foil cartridges were probably not much better than the early Springfield's copper cartridges, the switch to drawn brass cases made them both reliable in extraction.

The trapdoor action are a delight to watch, good solid lock. a friend has an w w greener 12 ga shotgun with a trapdoor action.... some times it makes wonder how people came up with these ideas, but then they have been evolving for centuries.
But nothing can beat the mauser 98 action...i may be wrong, but the way the cartridge is control fed in the chamber with out a flaw at any position may be inclined or any thing... is a great achivement.

There is a long list of truly obsolete British calibers which is no longer loaded commercially by any manufacturer.If anyone is interested ,then I can list them .They range from .220Rook to 20/.577 Alexander Henry.and .577 3 1/4"BPE last loaded by kynoch in 1901 ! Very interesting topic.

I agree regarding the Trapdoor Springfield. Of all the single shot rifles of that era, its action is one of the weakest, which is often cited by its detractors as proof that the US Army made a mistake by choosing it. However, I feel that this complaint is wrong. The Trapdoor action was sufficiently strong enough for the black powder cartridges of the era. While it may not be strong enough to convert to modern smokeless powder cartridges, like the Martini-Henry and the Rolling Block, that was not the purpose of the weapon, nor was it a criterion by which any military power selected its weapons at the time.

Also, as XL notes, the Trapdoor had a big advantage over many other actions like the Rolling Block and the Sharps Borchardt: positive ejection. The issue was that the old balloon head and, in some cases, rolled cartridges of the day were none too strong, even loaded with black powder, and they needed positive ejection to get the cartridges clear of the chamber. If you are familiar with the Rolling Block (otherwise a fine strong action, but this one is often cited as "the best" of the single shot actions of the era) no such leverage is available for extracting and ejecting empty cases.

This problem was made worse, at least in the American experience, by troops who carried their cartridges in belts over long periods of time in varying conditions, leading to a build up of verdigris on the copper cases. This added to the difficulties encountered in extraction.

This was no small problem at that time. Those of you who are familiar with "Custer's Last Stand" may recall that one of the theories proposed for Custer's defeat was the tendency for cases to get stuck in Trapdoors, and the extractor ripping the case rim off, leaving the case stuck in the chamber. This problem was exacerbated when the gun was fired repeatedly and got hot. The only cure was for the trooper to try to pry out the stuck case with a knife.

My opinion on the superiority of the Martini Henry is based on these points:

It was very strong -- as strong as any other single shot action of the time. I agree that this was not a necessary factor to choose it above a Trapdoor, but yet, it does remain an advantage.

It had positive ejection -- Like the Trapdoor and unlike the Rolling Block and others, extraction was positive with a great deal of leverage.

It had superb lock time -- Unlike the big, heavy side hammer of the Trapdoor and the Side hammer Sharps, and the big rotating hammer of the Rolling Block, but like the quick lock time of the Sharps Borchardt, the Martini Henry had a striker firing mechanism that was simple, directly linear to the shooting axis, and lightning fast. Indeed, the sear mechanism is familiar to anyone knowledgeable with the SMLE.

This makes the Martini Henry, in my mind, to be the ideal combination of strength, reliability in use, and inherent accuracy.

I would also note that the .450/577 cartridge was a step above the .45/70 in power.

Regarding:

But nothing can beat the mauser 98 action

Well, of course! The M98 was a whole generation of firearms development beyond the big single shot black powder rifles, being a turnbolt repeater. My statement was "the Martini-Henry was the best single shot military rifle of the 1870-1885 era," and did not intend to compare it with later developments, like the M98 Mauser, the M1 Garand, the AK47, or the M16/M4.

One of the caliber which was introduced due to the ban on the .450 caliber in India and Sudan was the .425 magnum express by Westley Richards.It was probably the only rebated rimless cartridge ever designed in the British sporting ammunition history.It was introduced in1909.This proprietary cartridge with rebated rim fitted the standard Mauser bolt face.The options for bullets were: solid,copper tubed hollow point, LT capped in several forms,all were in 410 grain.Excerpts from Westley Richards catalog "The muzzle energy of the .450 bore powerful Express Rifle is 4,909 ft lbs, The muzzle energy of the Westley Richards new .425 bore is 5,022 ft lbs,being still more powerful than the .450,and is suitable for the biggest game" this cartridge was last loaded in 1968 box code was 24 KQ . Of course the cartridge is again available from newly formed Kynoch.

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One of the caliber which was introduced due to the ban on the .450 caliber in India and Sudan was the .425 magnum express by Westley Richards.It was probably the only rebated rimless cartridge ever designed in the British sporting ammunition history.It was introduced in1909.This proprietary cartridge with rebated rim fitted the standard Mauser bolt face.The options for bullets were: solid,copper tubed hollow point, LT capped in several forms,all were in 410 grain.Excerpts from Westley Richards catalog "The muzzle energy of the .450 bore powerful Express Rifle is 4,909 ft lbs, The muzzle energy of the Westley Richards new .425 bore is 5,022 ft lbs,being still more powerful than the .450,and is suitable for the biggest game" this cartridge was last loaded in 1968 box code was 24 KQ . Of course the cartridge is again available from newly formed Kynoch.

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The .455 was indeed derived from the .476 revolver cartridge, but the .577/.450 martini was derived from .577 Snider cartridge. The snider was the introduced in 1867 and served the British army till 1871 ,when it was replaced by the .577/450 martini."
It entered history with B company,24th regiment of British army on jan22-23,1879.on that day,Lt John,with some 140men,defended Rork'sDrift in Natal,South Africa,from more than 4000 Zulu warriors.In all more more then 20,000 rounds were fired by the defenders.

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The true obsolete British calibers which is not being commercially loaded by any manufacturer are - .220 Rook,.297/.230 Lancaster,.297/.230 Morris,.320/.230 Rook,.242 Vickers,.244 HH,.246 Purdy(very very rare)'.297/250Rook,.300/250 Rook,.255 Jeffery,.256 Gibbs,.26 BSA,.275 Jeffery,.275 FLand belted mag,.275no2 mag,7mm FL HH,.280 W.R,.280 Lancaster,.280 Ross,.280 Jeffery,.300 Sherwood,.300 Rook,.30 FL Purdy,.303 Jeffery,.303 Adder,.303 mag,.375/303 W.R,.320 LR,.321 Greener(very rare),.322Swift,.33 BSA,.450/350 2 3/8"',.360 no5,.360no3 Gibbs and WR,.360 2 1/4"',.360 2 7/16",.450/.360 2 3/8"Purdy,.369 Purdy,.375 RL NE,.400 3 1/4"'BPE,.450/400 2 3/8"BPE,..450/400 2 7/8"BPE, .Tired ? There are more
Regards