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Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:18 pm
by Safarigent
Hi guys, i was just having a look at these two rifles and it seems a rifle that came into being well after the other had retired was inferior.
Not only does the 30.06 have better range but also higher mv 2800 ft/sec vs 2600 ft/sec.
does that mean that a hunter with a 30.06 will be more lethal as compared to an indian army sniper with a SVD?
disregarding the muzzleflash that is?
i havent researched it all that deeply, went through the wikipedia in depth and a few other sites. couldnt get a lot of info. :stupid:
members care to throw some light on this?

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:35 pm
by jonahpach
The russian SVD may not be able to compare favourably with a modern boltaction 30_06 on the range with 1/4 MOA groupings etc.. But 'used as in infantry and staring face to face' (Kipling?) It all depends on the man behind the machine. The SVD may not be a tack driver, but when used for its intended mansized targets within its range and in the hands of a well trained sniper it would be just as dangerous as any other rifle the world has ever seen. Being semi automatic, a capable sniper using the SVD would definitely have the upperhand in a 1:1 skirmish in an open arena.

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:13 pm
by Safarigent
hi jonah,
i know but as compared to 30.06 being sighted for 2300 mts as compared to the max range of the svd at 1300 ms, its quite a shocking thing isnt it? one would think that technology would improve, not go downhill

The rifle was sighted for 2,500 yd (2,300 m) and had a point-blank range of 500 yd (457 m). The maximum range of the ball cartridge, when elevated at an angle of 45°, was 4,890 yd (4.47 km), or 2.77 miles.


reproduced from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1903_Springfield_rifle



something doestn sound right. is this a wiki goofup or is the 30.06 a superior weapon?

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:18 pm
by Katana
Safarigent,

Lets not forget the Indian Army still uses the Dragunov as the standard sniping weapon. I'm sure there are operational reasons, apart from bureaucratic ones, that they have not adopted any other weapon or calibre.

As concerns semi automatics, the famous Garand was one too.

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:46 pm
by jonahpach
Bigger & faster would not necessarily mean superiority, if I remember correctly the 308/7.62 x 41 is a necked down 30_06 and its case has been derived from it. The military has its priorities and most modern armies have now adopted the .223/5.56 an even weaker cartridge than the 308. Battlefield and modern warfare philosophies are ever changing. As an example the .45 auto is supposedly the ultimate manstopper, but why are most law enforcement and military establishments shying away from fielding this cartridge?? Because it is not easily manageable! Theoritically the .45 auto put in the right place will takedown any man and stop any fight.. But what if putting it in the right place is next to impossible?? maybe a few wellplaced shots by a weaker .9mm would do the trick better!

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:10 pm
by hvj1
jonahpach wrote:Bigger & faster would not necessarily mean superiority, if I remember correctly the 308/7.62 x 41 is a necked down 30_06 and its case has been derived from it. The military has its priorities and most modern armies have now adopted the .223/5.56 an even weaker cartridge than the 308. Battlefield and modern warfare philosophies are ever changing. As an example the .45 auto is supposedly the ultimate manstopper, but why are most law enforcement and military establishments shying away from fielding this cartridge?? Because it is not easily manageable! Theoritically the .45 auto put in the right place will takedown any man and stop any fight.. But what if putting it in the right place is next to impossible?? maybe a few wellplaced shots by a weaker .9mm would do the trick better!
:agree: Couldnt have said it better.

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:29 pm
by Subal das
Russian marksmen/paratrooper can from standing position place all 10 bullets into human size target non stop at 300m, if you take bolt action and equally good shooter, you cant expect him do similar job at the same time. with recent improvement in semi auto, and large number of very good rifles available at reasonable cost, bolt action does no have any advantage in 300-800 m range. some semi auto even made in 338, like DPMS panter for example. same time not so heavy as most bolt action rifles, not so costly and also shorter.

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:49 pm
by fantumfan2003
Only actual users will be able to tell you the merits and de-merits of both types.

Having said that, I'll put my money on a bolt action like a Remington M700 chambered for the 30-06. The Dragunov is known for its extreme reliability hence an advanced version was chosen by the Marcos. But it might be lacking in the accuracy dept. Especially for that single shot at 1000+ mtrs. But that's not to say that a well maintained Bolt action lacks on the reliabilty front. In fact Indian Army SF have used and continue to use Mauser and Steyr BA rifles mostly in 7.62 NATO cal.

If semi-auto is high on list of priorities, there is always the HK PSG-1.

I suppose we will never know if the Dragunov is popular because of the Indo-Russian relationship or because we did not have or did not want to spend the money on a quality regular issue sniper rifle.

May be someone in the forces will actually tell us more on the Dragunov.

M.
Safarigent wrote:Hi guys, i was just having a look at these two rifles and it seems a rifle that came into being well after the other had retired was inferior.
Not only does the 30.06 have better range but also higher mv 2800 ft/sec vs 2600 ft/sec.
does that mean that a hunter with a 30.06 will be more lethal as compared to an indian army sniper with a SVD?
disregarding the muzzleflash that is?
i havent researched it all that deeply, went through the wikipedia in depth and a few other sites. couldnt get a lot of info. :stupid:
members care to throw some light on this?

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:20 pm
by Katana
The first time I shot with my .30-06 I put a 1.5 inch group of 3 shots in the number 5 to 8 ring in a .22 paper target, the stuff used in matches, at 150meters. The rifle is is an 2008 model IOF. As I got along shooting I now get 1.5 groups at 300 meters. Its only the ammo quota which is a dampner.

Now I'm no fancy shooter, but if I can do this then I'm sure those trained snipers would do much better with either of the two calibers or weapons.

All said and done, I'll give my left arm to shoot the army issue Dragunov (I'd need the right to squeeze the trigger) ROTFL

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:36 pm
by Subal das
Katana wrote:The first time I shot with my .30-06 I put a 1.5 inch group of 3 shots in the number 5 to 8 ring in a .22 paper target, the stuff used in matches, at 150meters. The rifle is is an 2008 model IOF. As I got along shooting I now get 1.5 groups at 300 meters. Its only the ammo quota which is a dampner.

Now I'm no fancy shooter, but if I can do this then I'm sure those trained snipers would do much better with either of the two calibers or weapons.

All said and done, I'll give my left arm to shoot the army issue Dragunov (I'd need the right to squeeze the trigger) ROTFL
no need cutting hands, go to russia for winter hunting trip on bears, and you can shot Tiger which is based on SVD, as much as you like. quite affordable trips

warning sensitive content
http://rushunting.com/siberian_brown_bear.html
http://www.huntineurope.com/us/p_Russia ... d-bear.htm

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:27 pm
by goodboy_mentor
For long distance sniping, a good bolt action rifle in 30-06 is likely to be more accurate than SVD. Famous American sniper Carlos Hathcock in Vietnam war who had 93 confirmed kills, generally used Winchester Model 70 30-06. I read somewhere that the rifle he was using, was with a fairly worn out barrel. But he was familiar with trigger and sight settings of his rifle and as to what trajectory the bullet is going to take, so he did'nt want to use any other rifle.

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:29 pm
by Safarigent
me go ask daddy and find out.
:)

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:49 pm
by hks2056
Semi auto sniper rifles are the flavour of the day.Semi auto rifles with large capacity magazine are superseding the traditional bolt action. Dragunov is most widely distributed sniper rifle.It is popular on the basis of its performance and exceptional reliability. Modern day sniper rifles do not have quality issues.Velocity difference of 200 fps is not the clinching factor.It is basically the design and weight of the projectile that is the ultimate denominator.Above all the most important is shooter himself.

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:57 pm
by timmy
Mr. Mehta:

In one sense, you are "comparing apples to oranges," for the Dragunov is not exactly a sniper rifle, to which you are comparing it.

However, regarding cartridges: as Jonah notes, the .30-'06 was replaced in the USA's arsenal by the .308, or 7.62x51. The 7.62x51 is a shortened version of the .30-06; its purpose was to permit the same ballistics in a shorter round, which, in turn, would allow shorter and more efficient automatic weapons -- both machine guns and shoulder arms.

The smaller capacity case of the .308 achieved this by using more modern propellents, notably Olin's (Olin was Winchester's parent company and a chemical company, like DuPont) then-new "ball powder." When comparing smaller cases with larger cases, when operating at the same pressures, the smaller case will generally come closest to matching the performance of the larger case with lighter bullets. It is with the heavier bullets that the larger case will usually show the larger advantage.

You mention a 200 fps velocity difference between the .30-'06 and the .308: that much variance can be encountered with the same round in different kinds of rifles. It is not that much of a difference.

Please note that the case capacity and performance of the 7.62x54r cartridge that was originally used by the Tsarist Russian army and is also used in the Dragunov over 100 years later comes pretty close to the .308's performance. Also note that the whole US effort to obtain a battle rifle to replace the .30-40 Krag amounted to a lot of copying from the M98 Mauser -- enough of a copy that, when the rifle came out, the USA had to pay royalties to Mauser for patent infringements. In the areas where the USA didn't copy from Mauser, some of those "improvements" turned out to be less capable than the original Mauser design.

The .30-'06 cartridge was the USA's "improvement" of the 7.92x57 (8mm) round, and as such, did not offer any great improvement in performance and was longer, requiring a longer action to handle it. The .308 was, in essence, a recognition and correction of this choice: A realization that the job needing to be done was better addressed with a shorter cartridge.

This said, the .30-'06 has proven to be a very popular round, as its case capacity allows a lot of variations in loads. For the military, this is not so important: the military is not using the cartridge to hunt everything from ground squirrels to elephants.

The gist of what I've said so far is that, for the intended purpose of a sniper rifle, the old 7.62x54r round's performance compares quite well with the .308 (7.62x51) round the USA currently uses -- the one the USA chose to replace the .30-'06.

I would also note here that the calibration of sights, 1300m for the 7.62x54r and 2300m for the .30-'06 is not to be taken as an indication of the ranges these two cartridges are capable of driving tacks: closely clustered groups required for effective sniping. Rather, the 1300m sighting is a range that one might reasonably expect as maximum for sniping with the 7.62x54r. 2300m is the range that would be used back in the WW1 era for "Volley Fire," where troops would lay down a long range fire similar to yeoman archers laying down a covering fire of arrows at Agincourt. Such "Volley Fire" is no longer used in the military. You can see an example of this in the SMLE rifle used by Indian forces and chambered in 7.62x51: the originals used the volley fire 2000m calibrated sights inherited from the SMLE No.1 Mk III days, but the Indian 2A1 modification had limited range calibration only out to 800m, but still using the same cartridge and practically the same rifle.

I suggest that the calibration of the sights you are quoting as a reference to the potency of the cartridge has much more to do with the use each rifle was intended to be put to on the battlefield.

Now, regarding the rifle; the Dragunov vs. some bolt action rifle, then the comparison is also shaded by military, as opposed to hunting and sporting, considerations. The USA has used both M70 Winchester and M700 Remington bolt action sniper rifles.

Here, I would note that the use of a hunting rifle as a sniper weapon has some ramifications. A number of measures are taken to adapt a commercially available hunting rifle for military use -- the US forces don't just go down to the local WalMart and buy a M700 with a Leupold scope and head out to the battlefield with it.

The Soviets, on the other hand, have a very long history of sniping, and have spent many years developing it. There is some divergence here between the US and the Soviet practice.

The USA, after WW2, practically dropped its sniper program that it had developed from scratch during that war. During the Korean conflict and Vietnam, the USA had to restart sniper development again.

The Soviet Union, however, paid a great deal of attention to sniping and used snipers as an integral part of their battlefield tactics. One of these tactics was to leave snipers in place behind when their main forces retreated, which allowed their snipers to open fire on the enemy's back when counterattacks were made. Their tactics called for large numbers of snipers and which, therefore, required a great number of sniper rifles.

While the USA, even in the design of the M1903 Springfield, stressed individual marksmanship (The M1903 Springfield was rightly renowned for its inherent accuracy, mainly due to the more effective bedding the receiver design permitted, as compared to the M98 Mauser), The Russians in Tsarist days saw the rifle as a support for their main weapon: the bayonet, used in massed infantry charges.

Thus, the Mosin Nagant rifle was much simpler and, to some eyes, more crude than either the M1903 Springfield or the M98 Mauser.

However, the old saw that has been quoted on this site before is true and should be kept in mind: The Germans used the best sporting rifle (M98), the British used the best battle rifle (SMLE), and the USA used the best target rifle (M1903). The Russians used the Mosin Nagant for all 3 purposes.

Keep in mind that target rifles based on the Mosin Nagant receiver continued to be used in and win in competition by the Soviet Union and Finland long after WW2!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_Tkiv_85

Anyway, the Soviets in WW2 did not use special match grade Springfields for their snipers; they used M91-30 Mosin Nagants taken right from the assembly lines. Rifles that proved exceptionally accurate were selected for sniper use and fitted with scope sights. When the rifles lost their sniper accuracy, they were often returned to front line troop use.

The point I wish to illustrate here is that the US doctrine comes from a nation of marksmen that sees sniping as a small, elite corps, fitted with specialized weapons. The Soviet doctrine saw sniping as an extension of its massive army, equipped with weapons that were much more like what the front line troops carried.

In addition to this, the Dragunov was not intended for the same sort of specialized sniper use that the USA uses modified bolt action hunting rifles for. Refer to this wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragunov_sniper_rifle
The Dragunov was designed as a squad support weapon, since according to Soviet and Soviet-derived military doctrines the long-range engagement ability was lost to ordinary troops when submachine guns and assault rifles (which are optimized for close-range and medium-range, rapid-fire combat) were adopted.
For this kind of duty, more firepower than a bolt action hunting rifle is called for. A semi-automatic weapon is more desirable for long range squad support.

So, I would reply to your question by saying that the Indian Army's use of the Dragunov, rather than some bolt action weapon, may be more suitable for the tactical situations that the military doctrine specifies them to be deployed in.

To put this another way, please consider the final part of the wiki on the Dragunov:
The Dragunov is an original rifle design for several reasons. First, it was not meant for highly trained and specialized sniper teams, but rather for designated marksmen, spread in every basic infantry unit. In every platoon of Warsaw Pact troops, there was a Dragunov rifle marksman. In the German Democratic Republic arsenals alone, there were almost 2,000 Dragunov rifles,[10] while in many Western armies there was not even a single sniper rifle except in special forces units (as example, in the Italian Army until the 1990s), but in Warsaw Pact troop formations, the Dragunov marksmen were widespread among the regular units. To fulfill this role the rifle is relatively light for a sniper rifle but well balanced, making it easier to use in a dynamic battle. It also is a semi-automatic rifle, a rare feature for accuracy oriented rifles in the 1960s (except for customized ordnance, like M1 Garands), to allow rapid fire and quicker engagement of multiple targets. In order to fire effective API ammunition, its accuracy potential was slightly downgraded by shortening the twist rate, another uncommon priority for a pure sniper rifle. Its precision is good but not exceptional, also because it has a relatively light barrel profile. Like an assault rifle, the rifle has mounts on the barrel to fix a bayonet. The standard AKM bayonet can even be used to cut barbed wire. Lastly, the rifle was meant to be a relatively cheap mass produced firearm.

These features and unusual characteristics were driven by the tactical use doctrine of Dragunov armed marksman which was; from (just behind) the first line targeting high value targets of opportunity and providing special long-distance disrupting and suppressive fire on the battlefield, even with sudden close encounters with enemy troops in mind. A relatively small number of marksman could assist conventional troops by combating or harassing valuable targets and assets such as: enemy key personnel like officers, non-commissioned officers and radio operators, exposed tank commanders, designated marksman and snipers, machinegun teams, anti-tank warfare teams, etc.

Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:12 pm
by Safarigent
wow.
thank you sir for your very informative post. i have gone through it and i will do so again :stupid:
and after speaking to my dad will write again.
thank you for the time you have taken to write here.
regards

-- Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:32 pm --

no telephone connection, but look what i found, i should put it in the humour section, but it fits here as well.
enjoy....

dragunov
Executive Member
I took the SVD out again today and as soon as I was setting my stuff down on the shooting bench this guy 2 tables down looks at my stuff and asks me to move farther down the lanes. "I don't want to get hit by your ejecting shells", he says. This is one of those guys who brings a custom bolt action rifle with fluted barrel, you know the works, and lines all his handloads up nicely and is shooting about 1 round every 5 minutes through a chronograph. Anyway I'm starting to get this snobbish vibe from the guy and it's annoying me. So I move 5 tables away from the guy, no one in between us, and load up my .308 SVD. First shot I take, the shell flies in this long arc and hits the snobby guy square on the cheek! These SVD's are not only accurate shooting forward, but also sideways!




3-4CAV on ar15.com
"I learned the hard way, when I was VII Corps foreign weapons instructor, that the Soviet SVD was lethal in two directions: First, for those unfortunate enough to be downrange when someone who knows how to use it is shooting at them, and second, for those who are unfortunate enough to be standing on the right side of it when it ejects an empty cartridge. I was shooting from a bench, and the guy next to me had blurred vision for a couple weeks when an ejected cartridge hit him right in the temple. I felt bad, because it was the first time I'd fired the weapon and he was a pilot, and the blurred vision grounded him and required a medical board. "

ROTFL
a world first, a true battlefiend domination weapon. shoots up, down and sideways too!!!! ROTFL


extracts from
http://www.dragunov.net/report_ndm86.html

enjoy