Indians For Guns

Check these BSA 30.06 photos
Danish

Hello, it`s an Enfield. A sporterised Smellie ?

Grumpy";p="14698 wrote: Hello, it`s an Enfield. A Lee Speed or a sporterised Smellie ?

I don't know much about that as my friend is selling this and this rifle belongs to his grand father who recently expired, so he is selling this and he gave me the pic which he took from his mobile.

Danish

Grumpy,

It could still be marked as a BSA couldn't it? After all they did make Lee Enfield action rifles during the war and may have made sporters from the surplus at war's end. Possible?

Mack The Knife

This is a cousin of our very own teen sau pandrah ( .315 ). The BSA model was manufactured in .315 ( 8 mm ), .303 British and .30-06. Maybe a few more calibres.

Same classic problem, difficult to scope it, but in Indian conditions yes people will be forced to cough up Rs. 1.5 Lacs for it.

In the USA this would be sold for $ 50 perhaps in a second hand dealer's basement yard. But we got to live with this in India.

Don`t really understand your question Mack The Knife - BSA made many of the military contract SMLEs and, as far as I know, all the commercial Lee Speeds. Other gunmakers names found on Lee Speeds are retailers. All Lee Speeds were made prior to WWI.
The Lee Speeds were chambered for many calibres but NEVER the .315 - that is restricted to Ishapore made SMLE rifles.
There is a very large difference in the value of a military rifle that has been sporterised and a commercial Lee Speed - in the UK anyway.

shahid";p="14705 wrote: This is a cousin of our very own teen sau pandrah ( .315 ). The BSA model was manufactured in .315 ( 8 mm ), .303 British and .30-06. Maybe a few more calibres.

Yes you are 100% right... the IOF 315 is the replica of BSA rifle. In this rifle... the action is same as IOF 315 but the bolt in this rifle works very smoothly not like IOF 315 where we have to fight with it.

Danish

Danish thanks for posting the photos.
The weapon looks in pretty good condition.I think Dr Yadav was looking for a 30 06,you might want to check with him.
Thanks
Sanjay

"Yes you are 100% right... the IOF 315 is the replica of BSA rifle".
Afraid not. The IOF is a copy of the Lee Enfield - the MKIII* I believe. BSA did not design any variant of the Lee Enfield, they just had contracts to manufacture them.

Based on the Lee Enfield design BSA did manufacture and export to India. .315 calibre rifles. A few pieces still survive. I have personally seen one in Rajdhani Arms, Patna in 1990.

In those days a new IOF .315 was sold for Rs. 15,000. Basher Khan the owner of Rajdhani Arms demanded 18,000 Rupees for the BSA .315 and got it.

Some comments here - Grumpy and Mark may correct me if I am wrong anywhere:

1. The Lee Enfield action was NOT considered strong enough for even the 308 after WW-2 and the L 42A1 and other target and sniper rifles used by the British armed forces until they moved to the superb Accuracy International rifles were built on specifically strengthened Lee Enfield actions. If this rifle has been chambered for the 30-06, I would be very careful before I fired it

2. BSA made a huge number of Lee Enfield military rifles as well as Lee SPeed sporters and it is possible that either of these may have been used to build this particular rifle. The top British names always used the Lee Enfield action to build rifles only for rimmed rounds as that is what the Lee Enfield works best with, though, of course, as mentioned before, at the end of the Lee Enfield's service life, it was chambered for the rimless 308. FOr rimless rounds, the British used the American made M 1917 though they also had a version of that rifle in 303 called the P 14. If this rifle has been chambered by an amateur gunsmith in 30-06 there might be feeding problems from the magazine

3. The only custom gunsmith I know of who is making 30-06 rifles on the Le Enfield action is Philippe Ollendorf and his rifles cost, on average $ 10,000 or more for the amount of work that goes into strengthening the action. I am not sure there are too many gunsmiths anywhere in the world with Ollendorf's experience or expertise

4. I am personally a great fan of the Lee Enfield and am on the lookout for a nice sporter. But if I were to see something like this rifle, I would think long and hard before deciding to buy it. This is not to comment on Danish whom I consider a very good friend or his friend who is selling this rifle but this is to point out the deficiencies of tthe Lee Enfield action. In fact, when the British wanted to build a high velocity service bolt rifle between the wars, they went to the P 14/M 1917 which is a strengthened Mauser based design

Cheers!

Agrre, not the best of actions for a 30-06 rifle. I prefer the Mauser action or the Pre 64 Winchester action or the adaptation by BRNO lee CZ anyday.

The .315 or 8 mm is a rimmed cartridge that kinda works with this but it is a low velocity cartridge with a heavy 244 grain bullet. Does the job upto 100 to 200 yards. OK for Indian conditions, somewhat does the job of what a 30-30 dooes in the Americas.

Is the British .303 sporting round also a rimmed cartridge ?

No 4 Lee Enfields were certainly strong enough to be chambered for the 7.62 NATO and some were rebarrelled as the L8 in the 1950s. The No 4 ( T ) Sniper rifles in .303 were also rebarrelled in 7.62 NATO and redesignated the L42A1 and were in use by the British armed forces until the early 1990s when they were replaced with the Accuracy International built L96.
Indias Ishapore 2A and 2A1 rifles were based on the SMLE MKIII* but built of stronger steel to enable the use of the 7.62 NATO. MKIII*s had been built in India when under British rule so presumably that`s why they continued with the MKIII* rather than build the stronger and more simple to manufacture No 4.
The story of the P14/M17 is pretty involved: In around 1910 the British War Department developed a high power .276 calibre round and a modified Mauser pattern rifle was developed by Enfield as the Pattern 1913 to chamber it. At the outbreak of WWI the rifle was rechambered for the .303 and redesignated the Pattern 1914. Messrs Vickers were contracted to produce the rifle but were unable to provide the capacity necessary to manufacture it and built very few. Production was, therefore, transferred to the USA - primarily to Winchester and Remington - and supplied to Britain under lend/lease. On the USAs entry into WWI the rifle was rapidly redesigned to chamber the US standard 30-06 and redesignated the Model 1917. Although pressed into service at short notice the production numbers in fact exceeded the number of Springfield rifles built - the US Armies official rifle.
Sorting out the various Lee Enfield models is rather complicated as there are reckoned to be 24 rifles and 2 carbines in the series - these numbers do not include the Lee Enfields predecessor, the Lee Metford series or the commercial Lee Speed models.
I have been able to ascertain that BSA built NO Lee Enfield Rifles post WWII so could not have built any .315 rifles however it is possible that they rebarrelled some existing actions to order.
The rifle shown is a strange one and my suspicion is that is is a rifle sporterised in India - the stock design is definitely peculiar. As this rifle is a non- typical example of a Lee Enfield and rather beyond my abilities to identify I have copied the photos and emailed them to a friend who is an expert on the subject of Lee Enfields. Hopefully I`ll get an opinion returned tomorrow ( Monday ) sometime.

Rifles of this action, in exactly the same conditions, same stock, design, magazine were exported to India, marked as BSA, no matter what ever the origin.

I have seen them with my own eyes and held in in my own hands so there is no doubt.

.315 rimmed and 30-06, sure. Physical proof exists.

Possibly .303 British SPorting round chambering as well if .303 was not a PB in India prior to 1947, then it would have been used considerably by British Civil Service and Indian Gentry to bag game like Sambhar, Cheetal, Swamp Deer, Nilgai, Wild Boar, Hog Deer and Kashmir Stag. I am sure quite a few of these rifles would have been shipped to India by the firm BSA.

shahid";p="14998 wrote:Possibly .303 British SPorting round chambering as well if .303 was not a PB in India prior to 1947, then it would have been used considerably by British Civil Service and Indian Gentry to bag game like Sambhar, Cheetal, Swamp Deer, Nilgai, Wild Boar, Hog Deer and Kashmir Stag. I am sure quite a few of these rifles would have been shipped to India by the firm BSA.

AFAIK service calibres were classified as PB in most British colonies - this would mean that .303 British was indeed a PB calibre even prior to Indian independence in 1947.

Cheers!
Abhijeet