Indians For Guns

Ok,I know this is one topic that has literally been sucked of all its juice,but I still need to put it up on the forum. I'm writing a book(fiction) on the Indian SF. I've done a lot of reserach on the weapons used by them. I've noticed a general trend in most of the chatrooms and gun forums-people generally call the INSAS a BIG load of shit.But somewhere I feel thats being a little too unkind to the folks at ARDE and DRDO.I mean look at the SA80 or even th AR15(M16) family of weapons and you'll see what I mean. Now I'm just asking for your opinions and reasons as to whether an Indian SF jawan should be armed with the INSAS(any gun from the family incl the MSMC). And end your post with a vote-INSAS for SF-Rocks or Sucks....Oh and any snippets you have on the SF,please share them with me!!

Cheers!!!!

A perfunctory search on the forum reveals:

http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2612

11 pages of discussion on the INSAS. Did you actually look for it?

BTW, you're writing a book at 19? Great going.

Well, if I'm not mistaken the SF don't generally use INSAS... its mostly AK variants, a few Vz58ps, Tavors, UZIs, Negev's etc...

thanx for the encouragement hamiclair01!!!

-- Sun May 15, 2011 1:24 pm --

And yeah I did go through that discussion,...

First of all INSAS is hardly used by Special Forces. Its now being replaced by MP4 and MP5 which is more lighter and at times with INSAS, thats very rare.

A few myths about INSAS, first it cannot be called shit just coz it has been made in India, I had a good experience with INSAS and trust me its pretty neat! Aim is damn precise if you are not in burst mode. If you are a good shooter, you can fire 10 rounds and make just one single hole with that kind of an aim. Yeah, in burst mode, its a bit haywire, but I guess thats because it doesnnt have a mount like LMGs. If you compare it with AK, INSAS is lighter, smoother and same in precision.

The only bad experience I had with the INSAS is round gets stuck some times, otherwise, its a darling of regular Armed forces.

hi every1 i just could not stop myself from commenting on this topic since i mysxelf was torn in this topic, but aftr almost 11n1/2 yrs i feel INSAS is achieving the desired standards,i personally choose insas fixed butt over AK folded butt since the later has a huge play in its butt, a loaded AK is heavier than INSAS, in shots over 100m INSAS is any day more accurate than any other rifle avl with indian forces,in CQB chances of collateral damage from INSAS is lesser than AK,so far as wound ballastic goes INSAS is a tactical weapon which bleeds the enemy to death both physically and numerically ,our SF does not use INSAS currently they are using tavor,galil,glock,mp4 etc and so far as INDIA/INDIANS are concerned we are always blindy in love with foreign goods

Interesting opinions that are completely at odds with the SF folk I know. Also a load of crock as far as what the weapon is designed for and actual combat.

10 rounds in the same hole? Maybe the INSAS should be used for bench rest.
As far as collateraldamage goes, how does the INSAS prevent it compared to the AK? Magic maybe?

MoA I beg to differ,actually its not magic its simple science,in a CQB envioronment when bullets reccochet they actually cause friendly damages but i av not seen any with INSAS since its of lower MV compared to AK its my personal experience on the field

whether we like or not it is our weapon and has played a vital part in kargil war.so got to give it some respect thats due.

gladiatorgarg wrote:MoA I beg to differ,actually its not magic its simple science,in a CQB envioronment when bullets reccochet they actually cause friendly damages but i av not seen any with INSAS since its of lower MV compared to AK its my personal experience on the field

Richochets are a function of angle. Not MV. the .223 is as likely to richochet as the 7.62 and the mV on the .223 is compareable to the 7.62

The INSAS might well be a workkable weapon, however is fairly ineffective and not the first choice of the army. It has been forced down their throat and any fighting man will attest to the fact.

Gladiatorgarg: Italics and colour change below- mine.From here;
http://www.chuckhawks.com/243_service_rifle.htm

"...On the 5.56mm NATO's debit side are its low energy, small caliber wound channel, poor ballistic coefficient, and poor sectional density. The first two factors are responsible for its poor killing power; the last two factors contribute to excessive wind drift and poor penetration, especially at longer ranges. Except for its larger diameter bullet (.30"), the 7.62x39 Soviet cartridge has the same drawbacks as the 5.56mm, plus considerably lower velocity, which makes it very difficult to hit long range targets..."

incidently :
" ...so far as wound ballastic goes INSAS is a tactical weapon which bleeds the enemy to death both physically and numerically..."

I am yet to see a non 'tactical' weapon ! everything from a daisy cutter to a' genti belcha' are tactical weapons to a soldier
The Yanks issued M-14 rifles to every section in Iraq and Afganistan, when they found the 223 would not stop a 70kilo+ male, whether he was hopped up on religion or on fairy dust.Ought to mean something.
I have used the 223 from 100 upto 700m-63 grain FMJ, on paper, and 55gr Sierra SPBT on 20-25 kg feral goats. Wound channel is it, thats all, no explosive energy dump , nothing. Some of them ran atleast 5-10m ,heart shot.

MV for the AK and M16 round is available freely,apprx 2400fps for the AK and 3200fps for the 5.56 so I wont bother quoting any particular source, all dependable.NONE say 5.56 is lower than 7.62x39.
If Wiki hold any credence, by all means check it

+1 on the ANGLE being the cause of ricochets NOT velocity.I have, and can give you ricochet from a 22 air rifle.The poor, insipid 22LR is notorious for its 'ricochet bility' on water.Something I was taught at 8 years of age and is STILL a part of firearm safety classes worldwide.
I have all respect for a serving fauji-if you are one.But dont go around tossing fairy dust. being burdened with shoddy equipment is an occupational hazard,and I understand that- but I would use all the methods available to get info , that will make me understand (and thereby use) my equipment better...Hope you are open to change and acceptance? a bunch of backwards civvies teaching you ballistics...


Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques, Second Edition (Crc Series in Practical Aspects of Criminal and Forensic Investigations)
by Vincent DiMaio

Considered very ne plus ultra of wounds...

Dear Eljefe,
For the first time I liked your comments, after five modification, poor metallurgy and after rejection from Nepal how can somebody like it, INSAS is coming in new avatar black and camo and with red dot zeiss sight. Let me tell you gladiator it is nothing but sweet **** all. It is something like my fart smells good coz I know what I ate last night.INSAS is nothing but a compromise with security, Tavor and Uzi is being used by SF not INSAS because those guys are not expendables

dear Eljeffe i am pretty open to change and acceptance and i am still a serving fauji and hope to serve for another 10-12 yrs before i plan to hang my uniform with grace and dignity,infact i av joined this group to learn more about my passion,and what-ever i av said in this forrum is my personal experience through harder ways,i agree that INSAS may not be at par with international standards but with latest inductions they are quite good and dear Guncrazy dont be so frustrated its not the equipment but the men behind it that matters and let me assure you our country is in safe hands,but obviously scope of improvements are there,and thanks for this knowledge everybody

gladiatorgarg wrote:its not the equipment but the men behind it that matters and let me assure you our country is in safe hands

...which is why we got our arses kicked in 1962.... all the valiant and brave stands came to nothing and the Chinese simply marched with Type 56's and other nasty infantry hardware while your predecessors were saddled with 303's and stens.... no offense intended to your fraternity.... blame the bureaucracy.

The INSAS is just about 'adequate' but no more.

@ gladiatorgarg,
It seems all combatants are equally frustrated as me and so they decided to make your eyes wide open
http://m.timesofindia.com/articleshow/17222606.cms
regards
Guncrazy