Indians For Guns

Dear friends,

As I googled for the longest effective range rifle in the world and i found M107 .50 Caliber (LRSR) have

Muzzle Velocity 2,800 fps (853 mps)
Muzzle Energy 11,500 foot-pounds (15,582 J)
Maximum Range 7,450 yd (6,812 m)
Maximum Effective Range 2,000 yd (1,829 m)

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infa ... /M107.html

I fired rifle many times in Philippines in hand(means didnt fixed it to stand) and i observed some vibration (ofcorse some light vibration) and i usually hit the targets from 5 miters current, from 7 mtrs small variation like 2 inches from the target and from 10 miters the error should be 4 to 5 inchs. I got the above performance after practicing 1 month.

My doubt is
if we fix the rifle to the stand shall it create any vibration or not?
chk the velocity too, with that velocity, even fix with stand stand vibrates it self?
if the vibration is common, accurate hitting from 2000 yards is possible? cause one degree wrong angle at rifle can create huge difference at the target of 2000yards.
If it is possible, more range rifles are possible in the future?


Don

i. yes, any gun fired will have a recoil (the "vibration" you refer to)
ii. fixing a bipod or rest will reduce muscle movement of the shooter, not the recoil.
iii. the art of shooting involves accounting for the recoil and the shooter's movements to accurately place the bullet where you want it to go
iv. the different positions of the bullet based on how far you are are due to the bullet's trajectory. i suggest you google "rifle zeroing, trajectory, bullet path"

by the way..

don wrote:

I fired rifle many times in Philippines in hand(means didnt fixed it to stand) and i observed some vibration (ofcorse some light vibration) and i usually hit the targets from 5 miters current, from 7 mtrs small variation like 2 inches from the target and from 10 miters the error should be 4 to 5 inchs. I got the above performance after practicing 1 month.

why were you shooting at 5m?

hi,
Not any particular, I just tried my self to check my skills, From 15 to 16 feet I am good I just converted it into miters. I practiced only for my self not for any competition.



Don

if the vibration is common, accurate hitting from 2000 yards is possible? cause one degree wrong angle at rifle can create huge difference at the target of 2000yards.

Whenever an explosive is fired, as per the laws of physics vibrations are bound to happen, but good sniper rifles are designed such as to minimize vibrations in rifle/barrel to the minimum. British Army CoH Craig Harrison of the Household Cavalry successfully engaged two Taliban machine gunners south of Musa Qala in Helmand Province in Afghanistan in November 2009 at a range of 2,475 m (2,707 yd), using a L115A3 Long Range Rifle rifle chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum. These are the longest recorded and confirmed sniper kills in history till date.

If it is possible, more range rifles are possible in the future?

It is probable that conventional chemistry has pushed muzzle velocities about as far as they can go, the rate of expansion of propellant gasses places a practical ceiling on muzzle velocity of around 6,000 fps. The researchers are now examining other technologies such as electromagnetic rail guns, which have on test fired 300 gm projectiles at over 13,000 fps, with projectiles of a few grams being accelerated to over 30,000 fps. At the moment, the massive power supplies needed to achieve these results preclude any practical application, but there can be little doubt as to where the future lies.

i still go for the 105mm, at 15feet, you will only find mince, fried. no need to worry about groupings at that range as for long distance it sure beats the hell out of 50 cal

-- Mon Aug 30, 2010 19:39 --

and no one does grouping at 5M, as there is no point in it.

British Army CoH Craig Harrison of the Household Cavalry successfully engaged two Taliban machine gunners south of Musa Qala in Helmand Province in Afghanistan in November 2009 at a range of 2,475 m (2,707 yd), using a L115A3 Long Range Rifle rifle chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum. These are the longest recorded and confirmed sniper kills in history till date.

Records may be the records,

As per physics we all know few laws, I dont want to go through Newton's laws
but we know a right angle triangle laws,
let the angle at BC is y ( cause that symbol is not available on my keyboard)

sin y = A/B
if rifle vibrates 0.05 degrees angle to upper side
y = 0.05 and sin y = 0.008
we know B =2000miters ( the effective range of the rifle)

so
0.008 = A/2000

A= 0.008 X 2000 =16

means the final error should be 16 miters if the angle change to 0.5 degrees at rifle which is really a negligible error.

please let me know if my calculation is wrong


Don

Don,

Effective longrange shooting is a little more than rifle angles and recoil induced variances. Extreme long range shooting i.e. > 1200-1500 meters your major issues include wind, and something called the 'coriolis effect'. The latter is the movement of target, due to the earths rotation. And then you have issues such as mirage, bullet drop, gyroscopic drift, poisson effect, magnus effect, air density, angle of the shot (up or down), and of course your own shooting ability.

This is without getting into things like muzzle velocity and the transonic problem, BC, or barrel twist rates, and barrel condition.

16 meters is not a neglegible error. It is the difference between hitting your target and missing by the proverbial mile.

If you want to be a long range shooter you need to practise, because the most important issues are Wind and Mirage. Once you can read those effectively, life becomes a lot simpler.

to be a long range shooter one needs to learn science and maths. above the skills of shooting.

Hi Moa,
Yes, the given all the problems are impotent and I didnt mention that 16 miters is negligible, the error in the angle at rifle 0.05 degrees is negligible not the final error,

And now another info i need from you, is really earth rotation also effects the long range shooting?? Cause as per Newton's motion law, motion can not be seen while we too on the same motion ( I just simplified the law)



Don

Newton's first law
Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

BS travels further than any bullet

nagarifle wrote:to be a long range shooter one needs to learn science and maths. above the skills of shooting.

I hope that is a sarcastic comment...

don wrote:Hi Moa,
Yes, the given all the problems are impotent and I didnt mention that 16 miters is negligible, the error in the angle at rifle 0.05 degrees is negligible not the final error,

And now another info i need from you, is really earth rotation also effects the long range shooting?? Cause as per Newton's motion law, motion can not be seen while we too on the same motion ( I just simplified the law)



Don

Newton's first law
Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

Yes the earths rotation does make a difference at 2000 meters, but it is in the order of inches.
There are a number of forces at play. Including Drag, Resistance, and gravity.

Don

According to me the longest effective range rifle in the world is Chey Tac Intervention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CheyTac_Intervention


http://www.cheytac.com/

What do you say guys which is better of the two.

Hi MOA,

may be this is not relevant in this topic (may be relevant too) which air rifle (any local and imported too) have longest effective range? and is that range is legal in India if not what is the acceptable range in Indian law?


Don

The M200 Intervention rifle is part of CheyTac's "Long Range Rifle System" which includes specially developed rifle cartridges loaded with also specially developed very-low-drag bullets, the CheyTac tactical ballistic computer, (commercial PDA with CheyTac ballistic software), the Kestrel 4000 or 4500 Pocket Weather Tracker that finds wind, temperature, humidity, and atmospheric pressure, and can be linked to the PDA, the Vector IV laser rangefinder that can be linked to the PDA, the Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56, telescopic sight and a muzzle brake and suppressor to form Chey-Tac's Long-Range Rifle System.

CheyTac is not just rifle, but Long-Range Rifle System the whole package

Tactical ballistic computer PDA
Kestrel 4000 or 4500 Pocket Weather Tracker
Vector IV laser rangefinder
Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56

.408 CheyTac also seems like optimal cal and fits well in between of .338 Lapua and .50 BMG