Some pics for 30-06 fans - Winchester Model 70

[xl_target]

Absolutely gorgeous rifle, Herb.

[amitmeerut]

Very difficult to resist my self . absolute beauty...............no words....

regards
amit

[TC]

Obviously, but the whole Indian gun market is inflated. As long as imports cannot be obtained, this price disparity will be the case. Were these imports to be allowed, IOF would either compete with products of similar quality on a price basis or quickly go out of business. If they chose to come out with a premium product, it would also be similarly priced.

Timmy,
I beg to differ a bit on this because my long association with IOF officials, bureaucrats in Delhi who take policy decisions on internal production and imports, officers in the armed forces and of course visits to several IOF plants have only convinced me over the years that IOF products are of inferior quality because it suits the interest of many quarters. I cannot be more explicit in an open forum but I am sure you will get the picture.

For example : Find an Ishapore 303 rifle made in the early 1900s with hand tools and manually operated machines and compare the craftsmanship/ fit and finish with that of an INSAS made last year with fully automatic computer controlled machines (in fact some of the best available in the world) ..... and you will get the picture. In case you are not aware, the Indian armed forces are going back to importing rifles. INSAS will be phased out.

Since the topic of this thread focuses on civilian weapons all I can say is that Ishapore could make better rifles any day if certain people wanted to. Now, why a government does not want the country's population to be equipped with good weapons (and that too in large numbers) is anybody's guess !

Sorry for going off the topic. Herb please forgive me.



TC

[James_Bond]

its a nice gun. May be everybody dreams about it.

[timmy]

Obviously, but the whole Indian gun market is inflated. As long as imports cannot be obtained, this price disparity will be the case. Were these imports to be allowed, IOF would either compete with products of similar quality on a price basis or quickly go out of business. If they chose to come out with a premium product, it would also be similarly priced.

Timmy,
I beg to differ a bit on this because my long association with IOF officials, bureaucrats in Delhi who take policy decisions on internal production and imports, officers in the armed forces and of course visits to several IOF plants have only convinced me over the years that IOF products are of inferior quality because it suits the interest of many quarters.

TC: My point is this: When I go to this site: http://ofbindia.gov.in/index.php?wh=Purchase, I see a .32 revolver listed for about Rs/ 80,000. I will confess, I went to the site because I thought, 'maybe I should buy one of these revolvers and shoot it myself, to get a better idea what posters are talking about.' When I did the conversion, I had to check several times, because Rs/ 80,000 = $1,300 USD! I could not believe that!

$1,300 will buy a pretty nice revolver here. That is about the price of a Manhurin M73 here in the USA, if you could buy one. So, I would make the following observations:

The cost of labor in India cannot be what it is in France or, say, at a place like Colt or S&W in the USA.

I would suspect that the machine tools being used to make the .32 Revolver are not new -- at least all of them. I do know that the lockwork was changed at one point from the Webley pattern to something that has been described as approximating a S&W. I don't know what all that entails. Perhaps some new machine tools were involved in the process of converting over, but the cost of manufacturing a coil spring clockwork is less. I don't know what would offset what, but certainly there are not as many labor hours going into the finish of an IOF revolver, compared to a S&W or Colt. Or, even a Ruger, for that matter.

So, I am seeing the IOF .32 as something that cannot cost as much to make in India as a S&W costs in the US, costing the same or more. Where is that money going? As you say, perhaps just how this pricing is set and the reasons for it may not be able to be discussed, but I can hardly believe that the IOF cost of manufacture is anywhere near what it is for S&W. There is a large profit going somewhere in this story!

Furthermore, if, on the Indian market, one had a zero-tariff import duty and manufactures of revolvers like S&W, Colt, Taurus, Korth, Ruger, etc, could sell in India what they sell in other places for the prices they charge, I must believe that there would not be too many IOF revolvers sold, even allowing for people who would only buy Indian for nationalistic reasons or those who are totally enamored with the IOF .32.

The price of $1,300 is only sustainable in a market where nothing else is available.

[TC]

TC: My point is this: When I go to this site: http://ofbindia.gov.in/index.php?wh=Purchase, I see a .32 revolver listed for about Rs/ 80,000. I will confess, I went to the site because I thought, 'maybe I should buy one of these revolvers and shoot it myself, to get a better idea what posters are talking about.' When I did the conversion, I had to check several times, because Rs/ 80,000 = $1,300 USD! I could not believe that!

$1,300 will buy a pretty nice revolver here. That is about the price of a Manhurin M73 here in the USA, if you could buy one. So, I would make the following observations:

The cost of labor in India cannot be what it is in France or, say, at a place like Colt or S&W in the USA.

Timmy, you are more than 100 per cent right, especially the last observation.

I would suspect that the machine tools being used to make the .32 Revolver are not new -- at least all of them. I do know that the lockwork was changed at one point from the Webley pattern to something that has been described as approximating a S&W. I don't know what all that entails. Perhaps some new machine tools were involved in the process of converting over, but the cost of manufacturing a coil spring clockwork is less. I don't know what would offset what, but certainly there are not as many labor hours going into the finish of an IOF revolver, compared to a S&W or Colt. Or, even a Ruger, for that matter.

The machines have been overhauled and updated. In fact, most of the cutters follow CAD (computer aided design) and are automatic. That means, less and less man hours.

So, I am seeing the IOF .32 as something that cannot cost as much to make in India as a S&W costs in the US, costing the same or more. Where is that money going? As you say, perhaps just how this pricing is set and the reasons for it may not be able to be discussed, but I can hardly believe that the IOF cost of manufacture is anywhere near what it is for S&W. There is a large profit going somewhere in this story!

..... some wise person once wrote a book.... "The wonder that was India".... I just love the title

Furthermore, if, on the Indian market, one had a zero-tariff import duty and manufactures of revolvers like S&W, Colt, Taurus, Korth, Ruger, etc, could sell in India what they sell in other places for the prices they charge, I must believe that there would not be too many IOF revolvers sold, even allowing for people who would only buy Indian for nationalistic reasons or those who are totally enamored with the IOF .32.

Quite right. But even if the Indian government lifted the ban on import by private citizens and charged the last prevalent import duty of a whopping 230 % a .32 Smith and Wesson from the US would still cost less than the IOF .32. Wouldn't you agree !

But the BIG Question is : Would an Indian politician, who is guarded round the clock by commandos armed with Heckler and Koch SMGs and who himself buys imported weapons locked in police malkhanas for a paltry Rs 500 and also easily get a special order issued by the Home Ministry to import a fresh piece from the US during one of his luxury trips (all with tax payers money of course) would he welcome the idea of a common man armed with an imported revolver as well ? I guess not.
Or else, why would political parties that know jolly well that criminals, insurgent groups and terrorists are armed to the teeth with sophisticated (mostly automatic) weapons would stop tax paying citizens and gun dealers from importing weapons even by paying hefty import duty.
Its all a matter of political will. Or, should we say, the lack of it.

Cheers
TC

[Amit357]

Obviously, but the whole Indian gun market is inflated. As long as imports cannot be obtained, this price disparity will be the case. Were these imports to be allowed, IOF would either compete with products of similar quality on a price basis or quickly go out of business. If they chose to come out with a premium product, it would also be similarly priced.

Timmy,
I beg to differ a bit on this because my long association with IOF officials, bureaucrats in Delhi who take policy decisions on internal production and imports, officers in the armed forces and of course visits to several IOF plants have only convinced me over the years that IOF products are of inferior quality because it suits the interest of many quarters.

TC: My point is this: When I go to this site: http://ofbindia.gov.in/index.php?wh=Purchase, I see a .32 revolver listed for about Rs/ 80,000. I will confess, I went to the site because I thought, 'maybe I should buy one of these revolvers and shoot it myself, to get a better idea what posters are talking about.' When I did the conversion, I had to check several times, because Rs/ 80,000 = $1,300 USD! I could not believe that!

$1,300 will buy a pretty nice revolver here. That is about the price of a Manhurin M73 here in the USA, if you could buy one. So, I would make the following observations:

The cost of labor in India cannot be what it is in France or, say, at a place like Colt or S&W in the USA.

I would suspect that the machine tools being used to make the .32 Revolver are not new -- at least all of them. I do know that the lockwork was changed at one point from the Webley pattern to something that has been described as approximating a S&W. I don't know what all that entails. Perhaps some new machine tools were involved in the process of converting over, but the cost of manufacturing a coil spring clockwork is less. I don't know what would offset what, but certainly there are not as many labor hours going into the finish of an IOF revolver, compared to a S&W or Colt. Or, even a Ruger, for that matter.

So, I am seeing the IOF .32 as something that cannot cost as much to make in India as a S&W costs in the US, costing the same or more. Where is that money going? As you say, perhaps just how this pricing is set and the reasons for it may not be able to be discussed, but I can hardly believe that the IOF cost of manufacture is anywhere near what it is for S&W. There is a large profit going somewhere in this story!

Furthermore, if, on the Indian market, one had a zero-tariff import duty and manufactures of revolvers like S&W, Colt, Taurus, Korth, Ruger, etc, could sell in India what they sell in other places for the prices they charge, I must believe that there would not be too many IOF revolvers sold, even allowing for people who would only buy Indian for nationalistic reasons or those who are totally enamored with the IOF .32.

The price of $1,300 is only sustainable in a market where nothing else is available.

Timmy + 100

[urooj]

More of a beauty than any woman congrats for your possession.

[sa_ali]

Its a beauty, ready to be unleashed congrats Bro.