Holland's .375 the world's greatest big bore.

[Bespoke]

.375 H&H has stood test of time for almost 100 years now.It is one of the most versatile calibers in world. I know people who have hunted all five continents and swear by the caliber.I think 9.3x62 is another great caliber with Ballistics almost identical to .375 with softer recoil than .375 H&H but most of the people opt .375H&H because ammo is much more easily available and cheaper than 9.3X62.

9.3 did take quiet a bit of game in Africa specially in Namibia and other German colonies,45-70 might be good for game in America and Europe ,Its definitely not for Africa or Dangerous game.

Shooter50,

It was not the only Magnum at that time we did have .300H&H Mag.The term "Magnum" was coined by British gun makers for advertising like they came up with term "Express",The term "Nitro express" was attached to most powerful cartridges of the Era.

Shooter,

Dont Forget The great .465 H&H and .577 NE

[shooter]

If i had to shoot a .577, it would be a .577 T-rex.... ouch

[Bespoke]

If i had to shoot a .577, it would be a .577 T-rex.... ouch

Dont get me started on recoil !!!

[shooter50]

Bespoke
The 300 H and H Magnum was then know as the Hollands Super Thirty. When I wrote Nitro Express I meant our friend Nitro Express of this forum !!

[TwoRivers]

Interesting statement, Bespoke. Can you tell me why quite a number of African PHs now allegedly take a short-barreled Marlin in .45-70 as a back-up for lion? Do you know what the .45-70 is capable of?

[Bespoke]

Shooter50,

300 H&H was introduced as Holland Super thirty but in 1937 when Winchester came up .375 H&H Mag they also introduced rifles chambered for ".300 H&H Mag" so ".375 H&H Mag" wasn't the only Magnum then. I know you refereed to Nitro Express on forum,What I meant was that during that time term "Magnum" was coined as advertisement gimmick as was the case with term "Express" in 19th Century , the more common designation was "Nitro Express" for most powerful cartridges in later 19th and early 20th century and just like "Nitro Express" term "Magnum" is to make cartridge sound attractive otherwise its meaningless.

Two rivers,

I think 45-70 is not a stopper,I have not heard of any PH carrying 45-70 (I might be wrong) if they are carrying 45 -70 for close up work in thick bush it makes sense because of shorter barrel ,we should not forget Lion is thin skinned game ,I am sure you would agree that 45-70 no match for thick skinned game like Rhino,Cape Buffalo or for that matter Elephant ,argument of 45-70 in Africa have been discussed quiet a bit on forums like AR and most of the people agree its not enough for dangerous game.

Most of African game with 45-70 is promoted by http://www.garrettcartridges.com ,Its just pictures with 45-70 guns we would never know if backup shots were required from PH.


The other reason why I wont compare it to .375 H&H is how would 45-70 perform after 200 yards compared to .375 H&H?

[shooter50]

Examine the stampings of pre war Model 70 rifles, do they say 300 H and H Magnum??

[Bespoke]

Examine the stampings of pre war Model 70 rifles, do they say 300 H and H Magnum??

Winchester introduced Model 70 chambered for ".300 H&H Mag" in 1937 .Winchester never used term "Super Thirty".

[timmy]

Regarding the .45-70 vs the .375 H&H, I don't see a lot of point in comparing the two. The properties of both cartridges are obvious. The .375 operates at a much higher pressure and bullets are much more aerodynamic than those in .45 at weights that are reasonable.

However, regardless of what some company is hyping or not, I don't see "Its just pictures with 45-70 guns we would never know if backup shots were required from PH." as being a valid point against the .45-70. Such a "how do we really know" question can be raised about anything.

My uncle saw Fred Bear's record polar bear supposedly taken with a bow in about 1964, when he was on his own polar bear hunt, and he told me that he saw bullet holes in the hides when his and Bear's hides were being washed in the Arctic. I will grant credence to my uncle's words, but casting such doubt as "how do we know" holds less water than the photos, to me, no matter how much hype they actually may be.

I believe that facts are required to discount something, not just throwing sand in someone's eyes.

My own .45-70 load was a 400 gr. Speer pushed by 53 gr of 3031. Such a load in a short barreled rifle makes quite a bang. It also develops somewhere around 2500 ft-lbs of muzzle energy -- a not-inconsiderable sum. There's no doubt that this would not be effective over long range. I wouldn't think it would be my choice for thick skinned game in Africa. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any reason why I'd choose it over a .375 H&H in an African hunt, personally.

However, the .45-70 in the load I mentioned is more powerful than the .405 Win, which old Teddy Roosevelt used in Africa and pronounced good, so I'm not at all willing to discount it as a valid gun to use in some kinds of African hunting, anymore than I would assert its superiority over the .375 H&H, which I think is an amazing cartridge -- a true milestone.

The .45-70 gained a lot of acceptance because it was a military round and, like some other military rounds, became widely used. On it's own two legs, we probably wouldn't even be discussing it if it hadn't been a military round. My own personal feeling is, though, that it certainly is useful and fun, and I suspect that it will continue to enjoy some popularity as long as guns are sold because people have a good reason for using it.

[Karnasingh Ghorpade]

It may not ever have been th greatest big bore, but it certainly has been one of the most versatile "African rifle" in the sense as it covered a spectrum from medium and large plains game to the big cats comfortably. However, for Buffalo and Elephant, it was an ideal "client rifle" but the PH more often than not preferred the larger bores ,preferably a double, for close in follow up work. With the .375, the client is able to choose the angle and timing of his shot. In a wounded situation there is no such option for the PH, and the .375 was borderline when it came to knockdown power for Buffalo and Elephant. I have used a Sako .458 Lott for Buffalo, and having had to follow up on a wounded once, it felt a lot more comforting than the .375 I had originally planned to use.

[shooter50]

The stampings say 300 H and H

[Bespoke]

Timmy,

I agree with you that for Close up work on DG 45-70 might be an option but I personally will not be comfortable with it.When I mentioned the company what I meant was most of the people cite that as example,The trophies might have been taken with 45-70 and might not have been my point is we cannot take that as valid proof.

Karnasingh,

I agree following up DG with .375 is not a very good choice ,It is certainty not a stopper for a wounded game ,I think anything above .416 is a good choice.Few months ago in a conversation with a British Gun maker Roland Wharton ,He was Master gunsmith for John Rigby & Co. back in days now produce weapons under his own name Ronald Wharton and Charles Lancaster told me that whenever someone comes to him to order a .375 he tries to push them to order .416 Rigby for that little edge.

Shooter50,

Just because stamping says .300 H&H does not change the fact that cartridge is called .300 H&H Mag plus as i mentioned earlier term Magnum is meaningless in this case.

[TwoRivers]

Bespoke: First off, how do we define a "stopper"? If the bullet is placed absolutely right, just about any cartridge can be a stopper. If a little ways off, the bigger the wound channel the faster the animal will bleed out, but still not fast enough if it decides to go after you. If it has an adrenaline rush because of a poorly placed first shoot, nothing but Naga's favorite 105 is going to be a stopper if the next bullet is not placed where it should be.
Whenever discussing cartridge performance, bullet placement is No.1, bullet performance No.2, and as long as you hit the animal at all, caliber a distant No.3. If you miss, caliber doesn't make a bit of difference. One miss is as good as the other.
Well, I didn't check cartridge prices when in Namibia this past August, packing my own handloads, but if you are paying more for 9.3x62 than for .375 H&H Magnum, wherever cartridges are loaded or imported, someone is cheating you big time.
Comparing the .375 H&H and the .45-70 is comparing apples and oranges. They are not in the same class. The .375 is an extremely versatile medium bore, though it wears no halo; the .45-70, if loaded to its potential, is a bottom rung big bore for close-up work. And I might add, it does that well.

I have an acquaintance who has a thing for bears, he hunts them almost exclusively, wherever and whenever he can. He started out with a .375 H&H, with stiff 300 grain Nosler Partition handloads. Then he went to a .458 Winchester, and .470 NE. Now he wants me to get him a .500 NE SxS. (He's a cheapskate, though.) I keep telling him to go back to something smaller, something he can handle without flinching, and place his shots better. Doesn't think that's funny.
A year ago I witnessed a bear taking five shots from 150 yards at dusk, two from a .300 Win Mag, two from a .338 Win Mag, and one from a .458 Winchester Mag, before running off into the brush. The next morning the bear, a yearling (!), was still alive and killed with one shot from a.45-70, factory load.
What conclusion ought we to draw from that?

[Bespoke]

TwoRivers,

I will try to answer your questions.

1) I think Cartridges above .450 can be classified as a stoppers IMO.

2) I think we are talking about calibers not shooting skills and In the argument I was assuming who ever was shooting would know how to shoot and shot placement ,Of course the shot placement is very Important ,Its better to hit with a .30 cal in chest than a .50 caliber in the ar*e.At the same time I think choosing appropriate caliber is very Important. Lets assume for instance a Bull elephant charges and you having a .30-06 you got for Frontal brain shot but in adrenaline rush you miss the brain and guess what time for Happy hunting ground!!now if same thing happens with a .577 the punch from .577 even if the shot is not perfectly placed would stop the charge.That is what Stopper is!

3) Here is price comparison of similar ammo

.375
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product ... _id=118293

9.3X62
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product ... _id=118309


4) That is exactly what is said that .375 H&H and .45-70 are not comparable!

Am i missing something here?

I agree it can be used for Close up work but It will not be my choice since much better options are available.



5) I think the bear was victim of some poor shooting and well he was shot 5 times from some hard hitting cartridges and by next morning it must have lost most of his blood by the time he was found and any caliber could have finished him off .It was shoot 5 times with calibers ranging from .300WM to .458WM and then finished of with .45-70 and putting forward the argument that .45-70 is better is a very poor case IMO.


I would suggest following threads for further reading to about 45-70,Its more a subject of mockery than serious discussion.

1) http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve ... 109911/p/1

2) http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve ... 9621002911

-- Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:17 pm --

I am quoting this from another forum because I think it sums up the discussion very well

These 45-70 threads proove only one thing. People who own them, are misguided about their power, nothing more!

IMO, the fault is two fold! #1 is it has a bore size of .450, and groove size of .458, and that leads folks to think they have a big bore rifle. The size of the bore is not all that is required to make a cartridge a real big bore.

#2 is the rifles chambered for cartridges like the 45-70 being called "BRUSH rifles" which many take to mean it will penetrate brush to hit a target behind it. That is not the case the name was because it was a short ronge rifle meant to be used to hunt brush or timber areas where the range is always short.

There is no such thing as a "BRUSH BUCKER"! Any bullet that hits anything before it get to it's intended target will be deflected. Penetration is not all that is needed to make a viable DGR, but the whole package of balistics from primer to the othter side of the traget.

Shooting through trees doesn't prove anything.
but shooting theorugh a tuff hide, through the bones of a shoulder, or hip, and still holding together,and reaching vital organs while expanding a bullet to do max fdamage to all muscle, bone, and tissue on the way through to the hide on the off side. Anything past that is wasted, except for a blood trail. IMO, it all boils down to do you want to trail them or take pictures of the dead animal.

...........The 45-70 rifles are fun rifles in all configurations, but will never be a true big bore rifle in every sense of the word.

[eljefe]

This is turning out o be a great thread,Thanks Vikram!
Obviously, there are going to be many sides to this discussion and the entry of the 45-70 -adds a twist...
So, we inevitably move onto stopping power and capability and there will always be a plethora of instances where an animal took multiple 'tonnes of energy' to have the decency to fall down dead.

I was a double lover in heavy rifles, until I got the 9.3 (Bespoke, the Federal prices are eye openers-I thight I pay thru my nose for RWS cases & Woodleigh 286 gr Hydrostatic solids -about AUD 3 each!-but I have the satisfaction of knowing that the 58gr of Varget and Primer is loaded by own 2 sweaty hands and should stop most things out here!)
Yup, the 45-70 in a short barrel lever gun, stiff loaded is meant to be a fast handling rifle for close in work-possibly a modern successor to a howdah pistol?? that was tongue firmly in cheek.
I used a 458 cz/brno for a cape buffalo, solid for the shoulder shot, falls over, got the coup de gras with a second SN. No glamour.
A Water buffalo got 4x 470 SN in the chest, 70m approx, came at me and needed another 2x500gr SN (and a dislocated middle finger of my shooting hand) before he went down. NO, he didnt run!
A 120kg pig (as weighed post mortem!) was swimming about 120m away, took 2 in the boiler room with a 369 flanged , came ashore full of piss and vinegar and got a coup de gras with a 270 double , after I had to do a Pas de deux to get away from him! A sight straight from the Bolshoi ballet, with my then weight of about 110kg.No, I wasnt wearing latex tutu!
SO I am sure we are going to get more than a few but bear with us kind folk, do not cease and desist Sirrah, OR all shall be lost!