IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

[shahid]

8x57 ammo is not at all suitable to be fired in a .315 and my advice is no one should ever attempt it. It is a very different cartridge. For that matter there are a host of other 8mm rounds as well, 8 mm Mauser, 8 MM rem, 8 mm krag jorg, 8 mm siamese, but they are all different.

THis unique thing for 8 mm Indian .315 is a lower velocity heavier bullet ( 244 grains ) round, centrefire, rimmed. Some reject got cheaply from somewhere and manufactured here, perhaps with minor alterations to IOFs existing .303 cartidge making facilitations wherever they were in India then.

Trajectory of 244 Grain IOF , .315 round.

50 yards +1 inch
100 yard spot on,
150 yards -1/2 inch
200 yards - 2 inch
300 yards - 7 inch
400 yards - 11 inch.

Leaf sights, original IOF but silver metal put on the foresight.

[mundaire]

For those of you that are interested in the origin and details of the IOF .315/ 8mm cartridge, I've just received scans of measured dimensions of the IOF cartridge (courtesy penpusher) -



Also, for comparison below are the dimensions of the .303 British cartridge (courtesy Grumpy) -

Maximum Case Length - 2.222 inches
Case Trim Length - 2.212 inches
Primer Type - large rifle

Rim Thickness - .064 Rim Diameter - .540 Case Capacity in Grains (water) - 55.7

Maximum Cartridge Overall Length is dependant on bullet type/weight.
Military Specification - 3.04 inches



PLEASE NOTE:- While the dimensions of the .303 cartridge supplied are as per published specifications, those of the .315 IOF are as per measurements carried out on an actual cartridge (by a member here). This due to the absence of any data published by the manufacturer (IOFB). As is often the case, physical measurement of the case may possibly be subject to human error, so these dimensions should be taken as purely indicative.

IMPORTANT: I am also forced to mention here (for safety reasons), EVEN IF the dimensions of the .315/ 8mm IOF cartridge may resemble closely those of one/ more other 8mm cartridges of other manufacture this SHOULD NOT be taken to mean that they are interchangeable in ANY RESPECT. Cartridges of even the exact same dimensions are OFTEN loaded to very different pressures AND therefore CANNOT BE SAFELY interchanged in guns meant for the other. A case in point is the .223 Remington cartridge when compared to the 5.56x45 NATO round. While both are dimensionally almost identical, the 5.56 NATO round is loaded to higher pressures and may cause serious harm/ damage to the rifle if used in a rifle designed to use the .223 Remington cartridge! Though most of you are smart enough to know these things, I've added this paragraph to prevent some enterprising youngster from causing harm to himself/ others through half baked information/ incorrect/ hasty conclusions.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[mundaire]

IIRC there was once talk of the .315/ 8mm IOF being eerily similar to the 8x50R mm Lebel cartridge. But thanks to penpusher's research it seems that though close in dimensions (they are after all both 8mm rounds), both cartridges are different enough from each other to preclude any thought of their being used interchangeably.

Dimensions of the 8x50R Lebel:

Bullet diameter .327 in (8.3 mm)
Neck diameter .349 in (8.9 mm)
Shoulder diameter .457 in (11.6 mm)
Base diameter .543 in (13.8 mm)
Rim diameter .630 in (16.0 mm)
Case length 1.99 in (51 mm)
Overall length 2.75 in (70 mm)

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Grumpy]

Interesting.
Obviously the .315 isn`t based on either the .303 or the 8mm Lebel.
Seems like it might be an original.

[penpusher]

The .315 dimensions are courtesy Bobby Sidhu and the .303 cartridge dimensions were sent to me by Grumpy

[penpusher]

The .315 cartridge might be an IOF 'improvised' .303 cartridge.Shades of the 'sporting' .303 cartridge one member insists, exists.

[marksman]

As far as I know, 315 IOF is a cartridge then known as 8x50R Mannlicher issued to Greek army in 1890s which was designed for Mannlicher straight bolt pull action rifles, then a Greek issue rifle.. It had a 244 grains bullet as well(ball ammo). In fact, Mr.Tarachand of Tarachand Mehta & co, the gun dealers sold me two boxes of this ammo in its original pack. I threw away the ammo as all the primers had gone dud. I am sure those boxes would have been of a great value and would have been highly priced today as a collectors item. The 315 IOF ammo in the seventies was available freely at the controlled rate of Rs 8.90 per a box of 10 ctges. including taxes in Mumbai. You all may think I must be crazy in the head if I told you what all I shot and shot at , with that rifle.
Marksman

[penpusher]

What did I tell you Grumpy.


Marksman,

You have the case dimensions of the .315 and the 8x50R to make a comparison.Do they match???? What you think you know is not what is right there in front of your nose.

[Grumpy]

"What did I tell you Grumpy."

LOL

Yes.........and what did I say about the `woodwork` ?

[penpusher]

This is from a mutual friend:-

"....the 8x50R Mannlicher was marketed in the UK as the 500-320 King's Norton High Velocity and the .320 Swift. So any 315 designation that came CANNOT be original British."

[Grumpy]

Sukkpreet, it looks like you`re now suffering from the same overload of 8mm cartridge information that I was when in correspondence with you. This subject is driving me nuts !
The 8x50R Lebel and 8x50R Mannlicher are different cartridges.

[penpusher]

It does seem like it.

Some people are tracing the IOF .315 cartridge to the 8x50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge(read Marksmans post).The dimensions of the 8x50R Mannlicher are here http://www.municion.org/8mann/8mann.htm

Again they do not match those of the IOF .315

So it is neither the 8x50R Lebel nor the 8x50R Mannlicher

[Grumpy]

I`ve now spent hours on the internet and emailing knowledgable friends/aquaintences and it looks like I`m finally getting somewhere:
Firstly, that IOF `.315`calibre designation is not of British origin. I think that it can be accepted as a purely Indian invention;
The `8mm BSA` was a very short-lived cartridge - apparently produced during 1924 only - and is now accepted by most authorities as being a .303 necked-up to 8mm;
The `.322 Swift`( and `.322 Match` ) are different cartridges from the `8mm BSA`, first designed in 1908 and apparently rimmed versions of the Westley Richards .318. As the W-R .318 was first produced c.1910 this implies that both cartridges were designed at the same time;
Whilst one of my correspondents insists that the IOF .315 is a necked-up version of the .303, an examination of the case dimensions proves that this cannot be the case. He appears to be basing his opinion on hearsay `evidence`. I`ve supplied him with the dimensions of the IOF .315 and await his response.
The consensus of opinion is that the IOF .315 IS, in fact, a re-labelled 8x50R Mannlicher. The ballistics figures would certainly seem to support that view.
Drawings/case dimensions of the 8x50R Mannlicher are proving remarkably difficult to obtain but as soon as they are made available to me I will post them here. That should clear up the matter once and for all........should they prove to be the same as the IOF of course...............................
One thing that mystifies me is why the IOF should have selected such an antique as the Mannlicher 8x50R cartridge as the basis for `their` sporting .315 cartridge . The Mannlicher 8x50R was introduced in the late 1880s and finally made obsolete for military use in 1931 when the Austrians adopted the 8x56R for use in all military rifles/light machine guns although the 8x56R had first been introduced many years before in the Steyr-Solothurn light machine gun.
As I`ve been typing this another email has come in suggesting a reason for the adoption of the 8x50R Mannlicher:
Apparently post 1907 many East African 8x50R rifles were `dumped` in India and the Indian Khirkee ( Kirkee ) munitions factory subsequently made ammunition in the calibre. Perhaps the IOF `bods` just had a root about in their ordnance facilities to see what was laying around..................................................?

[penpusher]

Grumpy,try this link for dimensions of the 8x50R Austrian Mannlicher http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/ai.cgi?sn= ... &catid=563

[Grumpy]

I saw the dimensions given on a Spanish website :
http://www.municion.org/8mann/8mann.htm
but rejected them as they do not include any length dimensions......however I have since seen two case lengths quoted for the 8x50R Mannlicher of 50.3mm and 50.6mm.
The dimensions for the 8x50R Mannlicher are very similar. You have to remember that the Spanish dimensions are - presumably - taken from the original drawings whilst the dimensions for the IOF .315 detailed above were taken directly from a cartridge. Manufacturing tolerances will easily account for the differences.
By the way, the upper collar/lower neck radius given in the IOF .315 drawings above is obviously incorrect. If that measurement is corrected I think that we will all have to concede that the IOF .315 IS a direct copy of the 8x50R Mannlicher.