Spark Ignited Muzzleloader Economics for residents in India

[mehulkamdar]

As some may know, Conty1's father is here on avisit and we have had a fantastic time these past few days checking out the various gun shops and shooting trap here. Yesterday, we tried working out the ecpnomics of importing an electronic muzzleloader into India if someone had a license for one and was allowed to import one. The List price is about $ 500 which means that in store prices especially from discount stores would be half as much. This means a rifle for about Rs 10,000. Add a bullet mould for about $ 25 or Rs 1000, freight of about $ 100 or Rs 4000. And on a total of Rs 15000 customs duty of 35% (?) So at Rs 20,250 someone could have a rifle which could be loaded to .308/7.62 NATO power levels though BP muzzleloaders are short range propositions only. This is well below the price of importing an air rifle into India and happily still permitted if someone takes the effort to cut through the red tape. Also shooting an ML is very cheap compared to shooting even a match grade rimfire and we have a guru on our forums, my good friend Mark who moderates the muzzleloading forums on AR, the biggest shooting forums by far, for any advice that anyone might need in the future.

The CVA rifles are well reputed here and they offer a lifetime warranty on them, which means that if someone were to take a dealership and import them into India, they could, with a little care, offer a fantastic product at a very economical price and well within the scope of present day regulations.

Now, we do have some dealers who visit here, and this is a hudge, nudge, wink, wink, hint to these gentlemen. Let's see who bites.

All potential buyers in favour of this, please stand up and be counted. Let the dealers know that they have a business opportunity courtesy discussions on this group.

Cheers!

[cottage cheese]

Bitten hard enough to choke on it!...

Thats a pretty interesting idea mehul. I'll peddle this idea with my dealer friends...lets see what develops!

I believe there are some ambiguities in the arms act about MLs...or perhaps I've not read thoroughly enough. Does Indian law distinguish between smooth bore muskets and rifled muskets? Being sure of that could be pretty important.

[eljefe]

CC ,
please choke well!
am looking forward to getting an inline ML, will be good if you pioneer the effort.Go for it!
Best
Axx

[mehulkamdar]

Gentlemen,

Perhaps this is premature in terms of the time frame, but what the heck - it is no secret and it has been discussed over here before.

A confession of sorts - Mark and I had been planning on acquiring a gun shop for some time but after Illinois decided to bring in some highly restrictive news laws (which prompted a rebellion by one of the counties here) we decided not to let this state get any more tax money from us as far as possible. We hope to work on a gun shop in St Charles or St Louis just across the Missouri river from Mark's place in the very near future. We shall also be looking at exports and imports.

If dealers in India want to work with us, we would be more than happy to work things out from our side - shotguns (smokeless) and muzzleloaders no longer come under export restrictions over here as they only require a simple form from the Department of Commerce though rifles are regulated as are handguns. We also hope to organise ammunition sales for Indians travelling with a license though I am not sure that too many would fly through St Louis if at all. Our plans are not confirmed but they will be very soon and if there is any way we could help, we'd be glad to.

In any case, if someone does this with or without us, our hat's off to them and our best wishes to them for the future. This is a fantastic idea within the current restrictions and I hope someone provides the service that Indian shooters richly deserve.

CC,

AFAIK there are restrictions on Indian gunmakers manufacturing rifled barrel guns (smokeless cartridge guns) for sale to the public. I have never heard of any restrictions on rifled barrel muzzleloaders. But, yes, please check and post whatever information you and others are able to gather. This would benefit every member over here without any doubt.

Cheers!

[Mark]

Well I've been called many things in my life, don't think I've ever been called a guru before though!

I will also say here, that the good old flintlock ignition system still has a lot going for it, and they are not as far behind as the uneducated often think.

There are plenty of flintlocks on the market and at quite reasonable prices, and I would guess there are probably a few originals still floating around in India.

One of the problems is like everything else, the only experience most people have with them is watching TV shows, and the guns there are primed wrong so they make a large flash and smoke from the lock. If there were 2/3rds less powder used in priming these movie actor guns you'd see much faster firing times.

[Yaj]

Sounds interesting! My only experience with firearms was shooting a muzzle loader(a few times) when I was 15.I still remember the smell,I was hooked!
Would love to own one in the future.
Yaj.

[Mark]

Yaj,

Out of curiosity, do you remember if it was a percussion or flintlock muzzle loader?

Just wondering.

[mehulkamdar]

Mark,

A lot of Indian tribals own old muskets that were once owned by the various colonial armies in India and they shoot them with nails, pebbles or ball bearings. They use firecracker caps (little red pieces of paper with a priming compound inside) on the percussion type guns and there might also be some flintlocks around.

There are also some old muzzleloaders deactivated by welding the barrels shut that are auctioned as wall hangers from time to time even by government agencies, and, of course, there are companies making modern two and three band musket replicas for export as well as 12 bore percussion shotguns.

Nick has one and I have requested for some pictures. Must remind him about this.

Cheers!

[cottage cheese]

Jut to add my little bit. My ML experience is limited to percussion caps. Also incidentally, I am originally from Nagaland and in spite of the disturbed situation there over the past half a century, there are some interesting tidbits. Of the numerous refractory tribes inhabiting the little North Eastern state, one in particular- the Konyaks standout with respect to firearms. The funny thing is that while the Konyaks are classed as a backward tribe so are accorded lots of state benefits and exemptions, they are also the only tribe with an age old tradition of musketry. Mon district, which the Konyaks inhabit, borders Assam's Sibsagar district, which was the seat of the ancient Ahom kingdom. The Konyaks, because of their fortunate placement, learnt the art of gun making from interaction with the Ahoms. As such, the musket is ubiquitous in Konyak traditional finery as is the spear and head-chopping long blade Dao. What can be considered as a fine heart-warming (I dare say- Rare) instance of government broadmindedness, is the fact that the Konyaks are allowed to manufacture muskets for themselves. I have to infer that it is a bit of a legal grey-area but hey, it hasn't added, in any tangible way, to terrorist or guerrilla activity- inspite of the 50 plus years of insurgency.

Most Konyak muskets in the present day are of the percussion type as, cap, ball and powder are easily available. I assume most earlier ones were flintlock, but I rarely see any in use these days. The village gunsmiths double as blacksmiths often, and the techniques used are ancient, bellows use chicken feathers
in the pistons...its mostly charcoal and coal. Tools are crude and often self made. Though most small townships afford the availability of regular factory made hand tools. I've not had the opportunity to see how they fabricated barrels in the past (Before the apperance of automobile parts). Most metal work was scrap iron that the bartered from the plains of Assam. Sadly though, most of the newer generation of gunsmiths are abandoning the older traditional techniques and are adopting shortcuts like automobile tubing for barrels...and truck springs for other parts and commercially available 18ga brass sheets for fancy trim like trigger guards, stock inletting and stock caps. Their lock work though, is pretty good and very sturdy and is of the generic side plate type.

They make musket pistols as well. I have an example of a Konyak musket issued on a display license. The barrel is skinny and seems to be made of some industrial tubing with a lot of crude brass brazing. The bore has been plugged with a length of wood 3/4ths of the way and crimped to prevent removal and usage. The rest of the parts though somewhat crude, are fully operational and it has a flimsy trigger guard made of brass sheet... I'll post some pictures as soon as I bring it back home from my friends shop.

I hope (rather day dream) of helping to preserve this unique tradition (Including ending the usage of scrap short-cuts). Obviously I dont have the will or ideas to go about it. Any ideas and suggestions will be welcome. As to how long this uneasy oasis of government benevolence will last... I don't know.

[mehulkamdar]

Cottage Cheese,

Thanks for a detailed post. First, a request: Please post pictures of the Konyak muskets whenever you find time. As students of guns we are all always interested in something unusual.

As far as Muzzleloading is concerned, it is the fastest growing area of shooting in the USA without doubt as people become interested in going to the basics of the shooting sports and grow fed up with ultra high tech stuff that costs an arm, a leg and both testicles. There are divisions among ML enthusiasts here with the extreme traditionalists using only flintlocks, matchlocks and similar guns while modernists use inlines even though there were flintlock inline muzzleloaders a very long time ago particularly of the Paczelt type which I am fascinated by.

If the import of only smoothbore muzzleloaders is allowed and if we have sufficient orders, I am sure that we could talk to CVA about doing a batch with 12 bore smoothbore barrels on their present frame. What we need is someone who could check with the various government authorities about this and do the job on the ground in India. If someone could do that, then if they want to work with me, I would be more than glad to do things from this end.

Cheers!

[cottage cheese]

Sure Mehul, I'll get my Musket back from the shop and get some pics up. I must warn that its not an accurate representation of the older (better) Konyak Muskets. The one I have seems to be a quick cobble job by some lazy son of a gunsmith. In my next trip home to Nagaland I'll definitely photograph some of the finer examples of the Konyak Musket.

[cottage cheese]

Also, of late, I've developed this really unhealthy interest in musketry(If you call it that). I'm generally disillusioned with the over regulated and mindlessly expensive usage of regular firearms.

[mehulkamdar]

Cottage Cheese,

Unhealthy? Man you're not only perfectly normal to be interested in black powder guns, you're close to achieving nirvana!

Do take your time with the pics - they would always be welcome.

OT but niche markets can be very good places to do business. ABout 20 years ago, when petrol or diesel driven outboard motors for boats were banned from being imported, a businessman from Kerala called Joseph Maijo imported a huge number of Yamaha outboards fitted with kerosene run engines from Yamaha and sold them to traditional fishermen in his home state for use with their catamarans. He became a multimillionaire in a very short period of time.

Selling electronic muzzleloaders may not take anyone that far, but if someone were to do a proper job of selling high grade air rifles and these muzzleloaders together and of marketing them properly They could do very well for themselves.

I wonder if gun dealers - and there are a few who visit here - have even bothered to note how pathetic theya re in marketing their products. Businesses have to adapt with the times or die and India's gun trade seems more keen on committing hara kiri than on changing tack, adopting new marketing methods etc to do better.

Cheers!