7.62 TOKAREV

[sukirti]

Are Norinco 7.62 tokarev pistol are as good as 7.63 mauser pistol in terms of quality and accuracy

[cottage cheese]

Are Norinco 7.62 tokarev pistol are as good as 7.63 mauser pistol in terms of quality and accuracy

Nope.... more or less on both counts.

[Anand]

Norinco "Tokarevs" in 7.62x25 are reliable in general. Accuracy depends on the barrel and the ammo being used, apart from the shooter. Some barrels are known to have an internal groove measurement of .311" or more. The bullet diameter for this caliber being .308". This can lead to very inaccurate results. The one that I owned in the USA was capable of about 3.5 inches at about 30 feet( I accept that I am a lousy shooter ). The grip angle and the loose tolerances did'nt help me much. I am sure more accuracy could be tweaked from it if I had used other than milsurp ammo in it and made some modifications. I did infact use S&B ammo but it was more for plinking and measuring MV than accuracy.

The Mauser 7.63x25, if your refering to the Broomhandle C-96 or the Bolo version,on the other hand is a classic and there is no comparison in terms of fit and finish. The Germans knew what they were doing and it is pure art. The Mauser's muzzle flash can be a foot long and is impressive to look at. The accuracy is very good and the tangent sights on the C-96 help matters.
Regards,
Anand

[timmy]

I can't comment on a Mauser broomhandle.

My Norinco is a 213 and it looks like this:



It is the same gun, but with a different barrel, magazine, and filler in the magazine well, mods that adapt it to 9mm.

Note the safety under the hammer. That was added for US gun safety laws. The original design had no safety, other than a half-cock notch on the hammer (if that can truly be called a safety). There has been at least one instance where someone carrying a loaded Tokarev/Norinco (not sure of the manufacture) with the hammer on half cock died when he dropped the weapon. The half cock notch broke and the weapon fired.

Because the firing pin is not an inertia type, as on 1911 semiauto pistols, you cannot safely carry with the hammer down and a round in the chamber. Thus, for carry, you must leave the chamber empty and work the slide when you're ready to shoot -- if you want to be safe.

I would not trust the Chinese safety.

Another type of safety that blocked the trigger and mounts a lever behind the trigger has been added to Tokarevs made by various Central European nations (ex-Warsaw Pact countries). Whether you'd feel comfortable using this safety or not, I can't say. I wouldn't, personally.

The Tokarev design was made to replace the earlier Nagant revolver. It was made to be mass produced and is rugged and simple. The Chinese manufacture is often much more crude than that shown by pistols made in the Soviet or Warsaw Pact countries, however the design is quite rugged and serviceable.

A unique feature of the pistol (regardless of origin) is the hammer-sear module, which drops into place. This module also contains feed lips, so that the most delicate mechanism of the weapon as well as the critical feed lips can be easily replaced in the field.

This design means that the hammer mainspring must fit in a small area, so it is a short and very stiff coil spring. It is therefore somewhat clumsy to operate and you'll appreciate the large round hammer spur for the aid it gives in cocking the action, when you don't use the slide to do it.

Another thing that Anand mentioned is that the grip is at an awkward angle, and the weapon will naturally point low. (I don't have the experience to compare it with a broomhandle on this point.)

Mine is reasonably accurate shooting cheap Russian 9mm and it functions flawlessly, despite its appearance.

I also have a Czech CZ 52 in 7.62x25. This round is similar to the 7.63 Mauser in power. It is a good round if you want something with a lot of penetration (which would be true of either the Mauser or Tokarev round). It is my intention to get some 30 caliber sabots and load .223 bullets in mine -- I understand that one can achieve something like 1700 fps with a 50 grain bullet. There should be impressive penetration with a military style FMJ bullet in this case, along with flat shooting.

Over in the USA, someone imported a large quantity of surplus Romanian 7.62x25, making this round cheap to shoot. I've also shot S&B out of the CZ 52. Whatever load, shooting is a pretty loud experience!

I don't know if any of this is of interest to you re: your question, but that's about what I can offer you on the topic.

[xl_target]

It is the same gun, but with a different barrel, magazine, and filler in the magazine well, mods that adapt it to 9mm.

Timmy,
Did it come this way or did you have it modified? If modified, could I inquire as to the approximate cost for the conversion?
Thanks

[The Doc]

Timmy,

The printing on the slide is horrendous . Are you sure that it is a Chinese piece and not made in Darra/Khyber Pass ?

best,

Rp.

[cottage cheese]

It is the same gun, but with a different barrel, magazine, and filler in the magazine well, mods that adapt it to 9mm.

Timmy,
Did it come this way or did you have it modified? If modified, could I inquire as to the approximate cost for the conversion?
Thanks

Hi timmy,

allow me to butt in....

The 213 is manufactured 9mm specific. I've come across several confiscated ones here - they seem to be more for commercial use than military since most I've come across have a rather gaudy mirror-polish blue finish. One even had a 'simulated' wood grip with finger grooves and adjustable sights to give that racy- target shooter look.

regards,
cc

[timmy]

No, these were made this way. The pic above is actually a little nicer than mine. You can see the wavy, uneven sides of the slide and the unevenly stamped lettering. Above the plastic grip, you can see the "66" inside of a triangle, which I understand to be the factory where the weapon was made (same as mine), which is supposed to be a bicycle factory. It's my understanding that Norinco doesn't actually make anything. They are a sales/export agency that handles the output of government owned factories. For instance, my SKS is (IIRC) from factory 26.

Mine is somewhat cruder in finish that this: Around the cut out of the slide ahead of the frame, more machining is visible.

It is also my understanding that somewhere back in the 50s or 60s, the Egyptian military ordered pistols from Hungary in 9mm. The Hungarians used the TT33 Tokarev and made up a 9mm barrel. Also, since the 9mm P round is shorter, but of the same rim diameter as the 7.62x25 round, all that was needed was a magazine with dimensions for the shorter round. A "C" section of steel in the back of the magazine well adapts the narrower 9mm magazine to the well. It is held in place by a pin near the bottom of the frame, which, in turn, is held in place by the plastic grips. Anyhow, because the Tokarev design was modified to take 9mm for the Egyptians, we call these pistols "Tokagypts" over here.

The safety was added by the Chinese as a response to USA safety regulations.

The whole business is admittedly finished quite crudely, but everything is finished with sufficient accuracy to make the weapon quite workable. For a long time, I wanted one and I found mine used in a gun shop display counter. I think I paid $110 for it. In included 2 magazines that are number-matched to the weapon.

It shoots fine. I've never really laid it on a bench to see what it will do as far as grouping. I've only shot it off hand at the club, putting maybe a few hundred rounds through it. It works quite well, with no jams or problems. It seems reasonably accurate.

If you have ever seen the James Bond movie For Your Eyes Only, the actor Topol is carrying a TT33 or Tokagypt. Judging from the finish, I would guess that the one he carries is not Chinese/Norinco.

Most of the Warsaw Pact ones I've seen, including Soviet TT33s, are generally nicely made. A big lot of Polish TT33s were shipped into the USA about 5 or so years back, which were fitted with the trigger block safety I described in the first post. These are very nicely finished, with great polishing.

As far as converting a TT33 in 7.62x25 to 9mm, I don't think you'd even need a gunsmith to do it -- if you're lucky. You would need a barrel, a magazine, and the "C" shaped spacer with it's pin. Hopefully, the tolerances of manufacture would allow you to come pretty close and a little fitting in the barrel/link region would do the trick for you. However, this assumes that the machining of the barrel locking ribs are made close enough to the tolerance of the slide to lock properly.

Other than the hammer/sear module I described in the first post, these resemble the 1911 Colt locking system very closely. However, to simplify machining, the slide release does not have the tricky machining to keep it in place. Instead, the Soviets used the stamped clip on the right hand side of the frame to retain the slide release pin. Removing this clip is the first step to getting the thing apart. It strips very similarly to a 1911.

As far as a personal defense or carry gun, if it is all you have, then it's better than nothing. But for me, the inability to carry it safely with a round chambered puts it pretty low on my list.

For its size, there is still a lot of metal in it and it is heavy. Compared to my CZ 52, a larger gun, it is heavier. However, both suffer from the awkwardly angled grip, which causes one to shoot low. This would require a lot of practice to overcome, were one to make it a protection tool. For this purpose, my Detective Special is much superior. However, I must say that the whole package, which is very similar in all dimensions to the old .32/.380 Browning Pocket Pistol, is quite compact and packs a lot more punch than the Brownings do, what with the 9mm round.

So overall, they are cheap to buy and quite serviceable, but not especially well suited for self defense. If this is all you can afford, then it is certainly worth it and better than other, smaller arms. However, if you can only have one gun and you can afford better, do it.

Despite the .32 ACP being much less powerful than 9mm, I feel much better in carrying my CZ50 for protection, as it is at least safe to carry with a round in the chamber and, being double action, doesn't need to be manually cocked to make it ready for action.

-- Fri Aug 07, 2009 21:39 --

I posted these pics here awhile back, but since it has been some time, I'll do so again:

Semi auto pistols:



Double action revolvers:



Single action revolvers:

[xl_target]

Thanks for posting those photos. That's a nice bunch of handguns you have there.
I didn't realize the Tokarev was as big as that.
As far as the DA revolvers go, what is the snubby?
Also love the single actions. I like the Ruger but is the one in the case a Colt's or a repro? When I attended my first cowboy action shoot, I was amazed that a single action could be fired so rapidly. Some of those guys could make it sound like a drum roll. Me, I'm not there yet and probably never will be.

[m24]

Great collection there, Timmy. Man, do I envy you .

Regards

Deepak

[timmy]

xl, the snub nose is a Colt Detective Special. Unlike the pair of I Frames, it is not very old (I bought it new in the 80s), so its fit and finish is more akin to other handguns. The two I frame Colts, however, were made in 1916 and 1920, and their fit and finish exceeds just about anything made by anybody -- including the S&W K22 at the bottom. For one thing, the Colts are really blue, not black like the S&W, which is blued by caustic blue, which everyone uses now.

You can also see the difference in the bottom pic: The Colt Single Action Army at the top (It is the 125 year commemorative and probably hasn't even been touched more that 10 or 20 times in 4 decades) is blue, while the Ruger (also in .45 Colt) is caustic blued, so it is more black than blue. However, the Ruger's fit is quite nice -- proof that with today's high labor costs, a reasonably nice fit and polish can be obtained with a lot less labor by using the investment casting process.

It is indeed incredible how quickly a Single Action can be fired, as you mention re: Cowboy Action Shooting. When I lived in Montana, Bob Munden used to visit the gun shops (including one that I frequented) and would buy up all of the reasonably priced Rugers. He'd work them over for his kind of shooting -- the reason he needed a steady supply of so many was because that kind of shooting is very hard on the action, and he wore them out pretty quickly with that sort of use.

Myself, I never shoot like that. I got the Ruger because it could handle hot loads that a Colt will not, and at the time, I was enamored with hot loads. The one I used in the Ruger was 23.5 grains of WW 296 over a 250 grain Hornady, and this was quite a potent load! Now, I usually buy 250 grain cast bullets and shoot them over 8.5 grains of Unique, so I really didn't need the extra strength, I guess.

Thanks, Deepak. None of these are the modern types of 9mm carry guns that are popular, but they float my boat. I'd love to have a bunch of different Colt DAs! I know I need to get around to the long guns someday...

[m24]

Ah! But Old is gold, brother. Can't take my eyes of the "Colt Detective Special" or the "Colt Single Action Army". If I had even one of these, that would float my boat till the rest of my life. By the way, what else do you have? Do post pics.

Regards

Deepak

[xl_target]

You can also see the difference in the bottom pic: The Colt Single Action Army at the top (It is the 125 year commemorative and probably hasn't even been touched more that 10 or 20 times in 4 decades) is blue, while the Ruger (also in .45 Colt) is caustic blued, so it is more black than blue. However, the Ruger's fit is quite nice -- proof that with today's high labor costs, a reasonably nice fit and polish can be obtained with a lot less labor by using the investment casting process.

Re: the Colt SAA; Is that what is called Colt "Royal Blue"? If so, could you at your convenience post a brighter photo? I must say, I'm envious as that is a beautiful piece.

Re: Bob Munden. He is amazing! I didn't consider that his style of rapid fire would accelerate wear but it does make sense.
Since you have brought it up, I would love to share a Bob Munden video with the board:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1180894/f ... ob_munden/

[timmy]

xl: well, I've got to get around to taking the pic first! I keep it buried and locked up.

Actually, the Officer's Model and the Army Special in the DA picture are also "Colt Royal Blue," and it is pretty apparent when you compare them with the S&W below.

When they "fan" those single actions, it puts an awful lot of stress on the hand and ratchet at the back of the cylinder. Revolvers are such crude devices anyway, and with the sliding angles that go on when the cylinder is rotated, there's a lot of opportunity for wear.

The same is true and more so with the Schmidt Galand action used by the older Colt DA revolvers -- the angles of working surfaces are quite complex and subject to wear when abused. Then again, nothing really has the feel of them -- something for which the Python, for example, has always been noted for.

Deepak, these are all of the handguns. Thanks for your compliments. The Detective Special was something that, like I said, I bought new and was intended as a carry gun. It is nice, but the finish isn't really what one thinks of when one thinks of a Colt. The SAA is a commemorative, and beside what it is, holds a lot of personal, sentimental value for me.

I do need to do the long guns -- I have been promising and know I've been lax, as I have with some stories I've promised. I know I deserve a whipping and a beating...

[BJL]

Thanks for all the work you put into your posts Timmy. I appreciate them.