.30 Pistols

[sharmmoh]

Folks,

Could someone please provide me information about .30 bore pistols in India. There is a lot of ambiguity over these pistols. Half of them are without proper paperwork, half claims to have defense paperwork with them. I want to know when and how were they imported in India and which are the real .30 pistols. I've seen a lot of them some with Chinese written on them, some with and without star mark and some russian Tokerov TTs. I need help to understand that apart from the paperwork what I need to know in order to get convinced that this is a real genuine .30 pistol and not a fake made in Pak.

Mohit

[cottage cheese]

Folks,

Could someone please provide me information about .30 bore pistols in India. There is a lot of ambiguity over these pistols. Half of them are without proper paperwork, half claims to have defense paperwork with them. I want to know when and how were they imported in India and which are the real .30 pistols. I've seen a lot of them some with Chinese written on them, some with and without star mark and some russian Tokerov TTs. I need help to understand that apart from the paperwork what I need to know in order to get convinced that this is a real genuine .30 pistol and not a fake made in Pak.

Mohit

Hi Mohit,

The .30 Pistols in question would more likely be Chinese made Norinco Type54 or M20(marked so). Russian TT33's would be less common in fact pretty rare. What ever few Russian(Soviet) pieces would have come via Afghanistan or quite simply a Darra made forgery.

Most (and not all) .30 pistols 'legally' owned in India, came via two channels:

1. Defense personnel allotment - Over the years the security forces have captured/seized countless Chinese made .30 pistols in wars and COIN action. These being NPB, they have been made available to Defense personnel by way of 'allotments'... while the Arms act has an allowance for Defense folks to possess a firearm minus civil license on the strength of his/her c.o's authorisation.... I am led to believe this is hardly done any more, as an Army mans transition to civilian life makes it pretty difficult to own the fire arm legally. Most, thus, would have been licensed in the normal manner.
2. Civil Government officials and Politicians- The arms in this case, would be more commonly sourced from malkhanas, where seized arms are stored. Again these are allotted, theoretically, on basis of merit of case and seniority and clout. These would commonly be seized inventory from crime control (civil) action or customs seizures.

A small number slip into the 'legal' category by way of bribes and other forms of persuasion.

I don't know of any legally 'imported' .30 pistols.... not when the likes of Bably&Eskaat , Baretta, Oolthar, and Simit&Bhesson ruled the import circuit when it was allowed(Pre '86)

Of late, you'll also find very well executed counterfeit TT's usually made in Darra or Bihar. The TT design being very simple and suited for mass-production, its relatively easy to reproduce even in very crudely equipped workshops. On the subject of fake pistols, check the Husqvarna thread - An unfortunate member was conned into buying a supposedly legitimate Husqvarna pistol.. it turned out to be a very well executed bihar made forgery... right down to markings.

How to tell? Well... to start with check the markings to see if the co-relate with known and established markings on genuine guns. Soviet and Chinese made pistols/guns would usually not have "Made in China" or "Russia" anywhere on the gun, unless its a recent model made for commercial distribution. In fact .30 pistols made in both countries are usually bare of markings except on the top of the slide (in front of the rear sights)...however do not rely on markings entirely, as they can be reproduced pretty convincingly by good gunsmiths(legal or illegal)...only look for inconsistencies. For example, quite obviously ,Russian made TTs would be pretty old- soviet era to be specific. As such to see one marked 'Made in Russia' would be somewhat inconsistent.

I'm not entirely sure if Soviet or Chinese military pistols had proof marks or if they did, I have no idea what they look like. You could also see if the proof marks make some kind of sense.

A better method of verification would be to check the innards of the pistol. Believe me, the gun is so simple, Chinese and Soviet pistols alike, exhibit pretty good finish and fit. Fake ones would generally have very pretty exteriors and somewhat coarse interiors. Most of the time even a lay person will be able to identify hand-made internal parts. The magazines also tend to be cobbled together crudely.

Hope this helps.

regards,
cc

[nagarifle]

also keep in mind that the soviet or Chinese would write in English for export. otherwise the writing will be in local lingo. thus one need to check out if the soviets exported TTs? try to find a TT on the net which has marking on it, help a little in id of the pistol.

[sharmmoh]

Thanks for the information folks, I've generally seen almost 50-60 these kinda pistols and I've generally drawn a conclusion that none of these were ever imported to India, they actually came to the market from Defense personnels or bureaucrats. Russian Tokarev TT actually never came to India, they are fake and usually came as a result of manufacturing in bihar and darra. As far as markings are concerned, most of the pistols which I've seen hardly bear much marks but lots of times have a couple of chinese words on the sides because indian military deleted any writings which may be on the pistols. Tokarev don't have any writings on it.The grips are marked with a star which are very well finished is original pistol however the fakes are quite badly finished. The people carrying these fakes generally sell the story that the grips were broken. All in all, 30 pistols should be judged carefully before getting into the deal and the original source should be well established. Thanks again.

[cottage cheese]

....might I also add that resale of allotted arms NPB or otherwise, is now disallowed (IIRC) for both Defense and civil personnel. This is because the privilege was abused by many service officers for personal profit....It became a racket in many places with govt. functionaries practically emptying out malkhanas for a song and reselling to dealers and individuals at absurd profit margins.

[mundaire]

....might I also add that resale of allotted arms NPB or otherwise, is now disallowed (IIRC) for both Defense and civil personnel. This is because the privilege was abused by many service officers for personal profit....It became a racket in many places with govt. functionaries practically emptying out malkhanas for a song and reselling to dealers and individuals at absurd profit margins.

This information is not entirely accurate. Unless there is any condition stamped on the license itself, there would be no restriction on the resale of any such "allotted" firearms. AFAIK the entire scare of NSP firearms not being able to be resold to anyone but other defence personnel has been laid to rest through a clarification issued by the Min. of Defence... after all the biggest losers in this were the ex-officers...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[cottage cheese]

....might I also add that resale of allotted arms NPB or otherwise, is now disallowed (IIRC) for both Defense and civil personnel. This is because the privilege was abused by many service officers for personal profit....It became a racket in many places with govt. functionaries practically emptying out malkhanas for a song and reselling to dealers and individuals at absurd profit margins.

This information is not entirely accurate. Unless there is any condition stamped on the license itself, there would be no restriction on the resale of any such "allotted" firearms. AFAIK the entire scare of NSP firearms not being able to be resold to anyone but other defence personnel has been laid to rest through a clarification issued by the Min. of Defence... after all the biggest losers in this were the ex-officers...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Thanks Abhijeet, for the clarification - I wasn't too sure myself. Now I know....

[james]

Hi CC ,Have you ever came across or seen .30 pistol with high capacity double stack magazine ,may be 14 or 16 shot . Feedback is requested .Regards James..

[cottage cheese]

Hi CC ,Have you ever came across or seen .30 pistol with high capacity double stack magazine ,may be 14 or 16 shot . Feedback is requested .Regards James..

Nope.

.... maybe there are some local mod jobs floating around... if they can do it to stuff like IOF Ashani and other pieces, I dont see why it cant be done with a TT...

[Anand]

Hi james, your question was to CC and I am sorry to cut in but here goes:
The one and only reference I have of a factory hi capacity Tokarev type .30/7.62mmx25 pistol was on the www.gunboards.com where a poster from either Yugoslavia or there abouts posted pictures of a
hi capacity (18 round double stack magazine) Tokarev type pistol which apparently came with 2 magazines and one of the magazines had a "hole/depression" in the "correct" spot which allowed it to be fired full-auto.
I would have thought that Norinco which manufactures these pistols even now, would have come up with a hi cap version in 7.62mmx25. You are probably aware that the 9mm hi cap NorincoTokarev
(213-A I think) version exists and was available in the USA for sometime albeit rarely.

I am also aware that Darra made hi capacity versions were made in 7.62mmx25.
It will be a remote possibility to find one in India. If you find one grab it quickly!
Alternately, penpusher was talking on another thread about converting the IOF Ashani to a hi capacity pistol with a button magazine release near the trigger guard. I asked him if the person converting could be able to do this with an relatively easily available low capacity Chinese tokarev.
Regards,
Anand

[james]

Thanks CC and Anand for reply. Refering to one of your post:Anand
: Shooting in my neighbourhood
by Anand » Fri Apr 10, 2009 0:27

1. .30 Pistol with magazine loaded but empty chamber with 1 spare loaded mag. (26 rounds).

In case if you dont have any problem in sharing , do you have a high capacity 13 shot .30 pistol as concluded from above statement , what make is that ,just for information sake.
Regard,James..

[Anand]

Hey James,
Go ahead and take a look at the pics of my pistol in the pictures section. It is a copy of a Browning Hi power and it accepts a double column magazine (they were never commercially made in a single stack version) I have three 13 round magazines and three 17 round magazines(these extend about 1/4 inch beyond the frame) for it.

My pistol is not the same as the Tokarev copies we were talking about earlier.
Regards,
Anand

[james]

Hi Anand ,
I saw that picture ,thats really beautiful .I think this would be one of its kind in India as there are limited double stack hi capacity pistol with civilians in India even in .32ACP. Thanks.James..

[darwinmauser]

sharmmoh ,one part of a Russian or Chinese made pistol which is extremely hard to make is the chrome lined barrel , Russia and China have been using chrome lining for ever on their service arms , I have a Norinco 223 civilian sporting rifle and yes, it to has a chrome lined tube.
Both the barrel and chamber will be lined ,when you pull the barrel out of the frame you will see a distinct line between the steel and the chrome. HTH

cheers
Pete

[eljefe]

Hey Darwin, I dont know if any of the TOKs have a chrome lined barrel. Can any board member let me know?
OT- How does your 223 Norinco group?any extraction problems?