A case for 9 mm Luger

[shahid]

In India arms laws are mostly stupid.

I have grown so much in love with the 9 mm Luger calibre, firing them in Brno CZ 75 and Beretta pistols. It is the ideal self defence pistol I would like to carry in India as well. Unfortunately it is PB in India, whereas it is in civilian use in most developed countries in the world.

Some theories are really wierd.

If .308 rifle that can chamber a 7.62 SLR round of the armed forced is NP bore then why a handgun that can chamber a 9mm x 19 PB ?

For stopping power it is the ideal medium grade calibre.

Compare this to the rather light .32 ACP ( 7.65 mm Browning ) we carry, or the much heavier and difficult to control .357 mag, the 9 mm Luger is one of the best all round calibres.

In reality the .32 is hardly an improvement over the .22 LR pistols.

Calibre Bullet Wt. MV ( fps ) ME ( fp )
.32 ACP 65 925 123
9 mm Luger 124 1120 345
.357 Mag 158 1240 539

Compare this to smaller calibres, the .25 pistols ( 6.35 Browning ) are even worse than .22 LR

Calibre Bullet Wt. MV ( fps ) ME ( fp )
.22 LR 40 1080 104
.25 50 760 64

[indian]

hi shahid bhai some people might have 7.62 as NPB rifle.but it is a PB and this may happen due to ignorance of authorities.

[eljefe]

Yes Shahid, you have been using one of the most successful and acclaimed models. Many people would simply consider the CZ75 to be the Rolls Royce of pistols...I had some experience abroad with a CZ75 and would pick it any day over a Browning HP 35.What ammo are you using in it? Pics would be good, it has been a long time since I had a CZ75 in my hands.

As for 308 andf 7.62 , some people are more equal than others? quite a few examples abound of such tom foolery
about 7.65 ACP, I am forced to use the cliched line-if you dont get bread, eat cake-Poor Marie, cost her her head , ostensibly.
But given a centre mass placement of about a cylinder full, has proved eminently succesfull.Just dont expect Taylor (or any other scale) knock down values to pop up, unless you are using Magsafe or equivalent ammo.

[Hunter]

Folks with all due respect to your views,IMO nothing stops as well as a .45acp loaded with Jhps's or Cor-Bons!

[indian]

what would be the result if u apply for a 7.62 rifle instead of a NPB rifle???

[indian]

abhijeets info regarding PB calibers clearly states 7.62 as PB even though the nomenclature(.308) is different.

[shahid]

I will post you pics doc. The Ammo I use is GEKO of Germany, the same as RWS, Rottweil, Alferd Nobel, its all one company now.

We also have some unbranded ammo from Germany. I will check the master carton to find out the Brand. THe rim reads as 9 x 19 sx and a large alphanumeric in.scription.

THe CZ 75 is good, it holds 16 rounds in a single magazine, quite accurate at 10 m and very reliable but a bit bulky to carry in a holster as a personal side arm.

But I like it very much.

[mundaire]

You cannot contest this (PB classification of calibres) in court if that was the question. Courts can only rule on laws as they stand unless a law or a part of a law is in contravention with the Indian constitution - which is clearly not the case here.

For this the law would have to be amended, the Govt. of India can actually change this (PB classification) through a simple notification in the official gazette without any need for a parliamentary debate/ vote.

Anyone here have that kind of "pull" within the current government? More importantly, would he/ she/ they be willing to use this "pull" towards having this amended OR would they rather use it to land themselves multimillion government contracts instead!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[cottage cheese]

Well the subject of PB and NPB is hardly debatable but again the 'adhoc' and babu inspired nature of the Arms Act and the resulting lack of crystal clarity compounds the confusion and of course, leaves it open to all nature of interpretations...lawful or otherwise...

Damn...technically 5.56mm and 7.62 soviet would be NPB...for the simple fact that it is not implicitly mentioned in the Arms Act... unless of course in a typically babu fashion a Notification to that effect lies somewhere in the quagmire of files... half the time one gets to know of notifications only when he tries to avail of the relevant provisions of the arms act.... often the blooming clerks discover the notifications only when you've busted your ar*e doing 80% of the donkey work.

Oh ya...Shahid...a small correction- the Cz75 magazine holds 15 not 16. Perhaps you mean 15 + 1 in the chamber. I must agree though, that its a first class pistol.

...speaking of which, other than vague mumblings about it and also the fact that the Bofors scandal over shadowed it, haven't heard or read much about the Czech Pistol fiasco... If I'm not mistaken the MHA or whatever relevant Govt. Department initiated a move to standardize the Indian Police pistol with the Cz75(?)in the mid 1980's ... all I read was that the dealings seemed murky and a large quantity of substandard pistols were apparently delivered and scrapped...or something(?)... Pity..since the Cz75 is one hell of a good pistol.

Who can volunteer more info on the Czech Pistol Fiasco.

[marksman]

Hey guys, please reserve your opinions on 9mm Para till you get to shoot 40s&w. The experience is out of the world as this caliber has best of both 9mm and 45ACP. i.e. velocity and muzzle energy. And it's not a P.B. either. I doubt ifany one has it in India though. The advantage with 308 Win. is that it is an accepted bore for UTI competitions. With the introduction of various BR calibers it is quite likely to be banned in the near future.
Marksman

[msandhu]

The PB and NPB is one thing. Agree that 40 cal is NPB and among the best cals but the problem is availability of the guns and then where to get 40cal ammo.
Cheers
Msandhu

[shahid]

The 9 mm Browning round used in Military and Police sten guns us very different from 9 mm x 19 Luger, or 9 mm Markov or other 9 mm rounds. With so much modern technology available to forensic and ballistics experts, all this can easily be differentiated in any investigation. There is little case today to classify such a popular mid size pistol calibre as PB in India, while all over the world it is a Civilian calibre.

[mundaire]

The 9 mm Browning round used in Military and Police sten guns us very different from 9 mm x 19 Luger, or 9 mm Markov or other 9 mm rounds. With so much modern technology available to forensic and ballistics experts, all this can easily be differentiated in any investigation. There is little case today to classify such a popular mid size pistol calibre as PB in India, while all over the world it is a Civilian calibre.

The 9x19 mm Luger/ Parabellum cartridge is in active service with the Indian security forces. Amongst others it is used in the 9mm Browning Inglis copy produced by IOF, also in the 9mm Sterling Carbine (that is commonly mistaken for a sten), in the H&K MP-5's carried by the NSG commandos, the Glocks in service with various police & special forces units, etc.

However, the original reason for banning military calibres is no longer valid. The logic in colonial days was to keep a tight leash on the supply of ammo for service firearms, so that even if military/ police firearms are captured by the "baddies" they would be unable to use them. This works so long as the service ammunition being used is produced only in government owned factories and not available for purchase from other sources. BUT this is no longer the case (and has not been so for eons now).

ALL of the service calibres in use with the Indian security forces are in common use the world over, and therefore the "baddies" can easily source ammo through smugglers.

The other angle for banning the use of service calibres is to prevent the black marketing of ammo by service personnel. Another hangover from the colonial days when our erstwhile "masters" did not entirely trust the native troops (in large part due to memories of the mutiny). Well we've been independent for over 6 decades now... does our government still mistrust our brothers in uniform? The same ones who are expected to lay down their lives for the motherland?

One should not miss the point that service calibres were not banned for use by civilians in Britain, only the colonies had this sort of restriction.

Anyhow, the main point is -

a) How to get a hearing with the powers that be
b) How to convince them of the fallacy of the logic being applied here

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[shahid]

There has to be a full parlimentary debate on this. IFG must prepare the basic background, then further progress will be taken up this year itself.

A proper document must be prepared for

Import curbs
Ammo Quotas
SPorts development
Calibre choice
Privatisation
Licencing curbs in a free India.

Lets initiate this ASAP.

[amk]

If someone hear can prepare the draft documentation, with reasons for lifting the various bans, prohibitions, etc... I can make sure the right people in Delhi at least read and think about it.

A lot of signatures would also help; every member here can get sigs from their local ranges and rifle associations.

AMK