Webley Scott .22lr pistol

[Peacefulguns]

Hi folks. Just saw the .22lr pistol on their website. Any idea about the price? If anyone has any experience with it , the feedback would be great.

Coupled with good cartridges it might make a good edc weapon.
With non existent recoil, one should be able to be very accurate.

Thoughts anyone? TIA.

[timmy]

We've talked about this on a number of occasions -- is the 22 LR an effective choice for EDC protection?

Wht must be considered for effective protection, assuming proper bullet placement, is penetration -- about 300 mm of penetration is usually the minimum amount considered to be effective. Consider these tests:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/pocket ... ults/#22LR

Next, assuming that you will put the bullet where it counts, consider how much damage it will cause by the time the bullet arrives at a vital spot. Remember, unless you hit the central nervous system, you will be relying on bleed out to stop an attack, and a small hole may not permit that before the attack is consummated -- on you.

Thirdly, also think about what the attacker is wearing. Does he have a cell phone in his shirt pocket? If so, your 22 LR is likely to be defeated by either being stopped or being so drained of energy by penetrating the phone that it won't accomplish its purpose. Remember that USA President Theodore Roosevelt was shot while campaigning by, if I recall correctly, a 32 revolver, and the bullet hit his glasses case and, while it penetrated, Roosevelt continued to give his speech to the end. There are other cases of inadequate cartridges being defeated like this, but this one is the one i remember.

Again, i am not saying that a 22 LR cannot do the job at all, but from my perspective, I would never choose it as a self defense cartridge unless it was all I had and no other choice was available.

You asked for my 2 pais and there it is.

[chicky]

I feel a .22 is an excellent practice weapon. The cartridges are cheap so won't burn a hole in the pocket every time you take it on the range.
It's definitely more accurate as the cartridge travels much faster and thus the trajectory is flatter.
The pistol is light and will have a negligible recoil since it's a .22 calibre.
Plus .22 or not I wouldn't like to be shot with it It's a great deterrent nevertheless, specially in India where the gun calibre awareness is very limited. I myself own a Walther .22 PPK and LOVE it.

My two cents...

[timmy]

It's definitely more accurate as the cartridge travels much faster and thus the trajectory is flatter.

What do you figure the velocity of a 22 LR bullet is when fired from a ~100 mm barrel is, and what do you figure the velocity of a 32 Automatic bullet is, when fired from the same length of barrel? Assume that the 22 LR is using normal high velocity 40 grain bullet, and the 32 Auto is using a 71 to 73 grain bullet. (This assumption notes that there are light bullet, high pressure loads available for both cartridges, but I'm basing this assumption on normally available ammunition in both cases.)

Then, figuring the trajectory over an extreme self defense range of 20 to 25 meters, what would the bullet drop be?

Finally, what would be the difference between, say, a 5 shot group of 22 LR and 32 Auto when fired at these same distances with a similar size gun?

It has been my experience that folks sometimes take 22 LR ballistics from rifle tables, where the barrel length is 16 to 24 inches, rather than using a pistol length barrel, when comparing 22 LR to 25 or 32 Auto.

From a 100 mm barrel, I see a velocity advantage of ~100 feet per second for the lighter 22 LR 40 grain bullet over a 71-73 grain 32 Auto bullet. I would not expect either the trajectory or the group size to be consequential over 20 to 25 meters.

[Peacefulguns]

Thanks Timmy for very valid points. But the pistol has ten rounds. How would you rate say three .22lr rounds to one or two .32’s. I keep the round under the hammer in my I of .32 empty, so the total rounds available comes down to five. Can one bet on quantity having a quality of it’s own?

[casual shooter]

Mark my words ..for a trained assasin like Mossad hit squad .22 is a choice of weapon, as they are very well aware where to shoot , how much to shoot, doube tap in sternum or a single head shot from .22 will be perfect but i think the barrell length must be 4 inches not less, wolvorene for example....

[timmy]

Peacefulguns: when factoring 22 LR, such as you mention, you must recognize that ignition of 22 LR, because of its rimfire ignition system, is less reliable than centerfire priming as used in 25 and 32 Auto, and the larger cartridges.

Next, you must also realize that 22 LR is not as reliable in feeding as the rimless and semirimless cartridges. Failure to feed is a condition that is more frequently encountered.

Thirdly, "stopping power" is controversial and maybe a myth, rather than a proven property, however, if you look at the statistics provided by searching that link I provided above (there is a link to another page (https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why- ... estimated/) which examines the 22 LR as a defense round), you will note what this article observes here:

He found that about 60% of the time someone was shot with a .22, they were incapacitated after a single hit to the head or torso. That’s on par with the numbers from some much bigger and more powerful calibers. But about one third of the time, someone hit with a 22 was not immediately incapacitated no matter how many times they were shot. That’s roughly twice as many failures as calibers of .380 and up.

Fourthly, You're saying that you carry with the chamber empty. What are the chances that, when facing a threat, you will have both hands free to rack the slide and bring the gun to readiness and face the attack -- such as, if someone grabs one of your arms? Your gun, in such a case, could likely become a liability, rather than an aid to defend yourself. This is the reason why it is infinitely better to have a gun that is safe to carry loaded and ready to shoot, like a properly designed double action revolver, a single action semiautomatic with a safety that positively blocks firing, or a double action semiautomatic.

This whole business of self defense is never a sure thing. As our Brother Vikram points out, it is like carrying insurance on one's house -- it's not likely that your house will burn down, but if it did, would you be able to cope with the situation? Your house burning down isn't likely, but if it did, you would be ruined. So you carry insurance to mitigate against the possibility of loss.

Similarly, what is the likelihood of being attacked? This varies according to our individual circumstances. If attacked, will we be killed, injured, or just monetarily impacted? Can we accept such a situation, and are we willing to let someone else (e.g., law enforcement) be solely responsible for our safety and the safety of our loved ones, or will we accept that responsibility for our own safety ourselves?

OK, having accepted the responsibility to defend our own safety by carrying, we also realize that our attempt to do this can never be 100% assured. Carrying a gun, for instance, won't help if someone sneaks up behind us and clubs us in the head. Carrying the gun is not a magic talisman that wards off all evil.

Similarly, there are varying degrees to which any gun can stop an attacker. The quote and the link I provided above address a part of this. Acording to those statistics, larger calibers are more successful in stopping an attacker than 22 LR. By going with a 22 LR, you are accepting that statistically, you are less likely to stop an attacker than if you used a larger caliber.

Again, by not having a round in your chamber, you accept that your defense won''t apply in circumstances where both of your hands aren't free. You gun could still protect you in some attack situations, but not in others where you only need one hand to bring your gun to your defense.

So, there are all these possibilities, but like flipping a coin 100 times, each time you flip it, the chances are still 50-50, heads or tails. By your choice of carrying a certain cartridge or a certain carry method, you choose what level of protection you have. Is your attacker high on drugs, for instance? In such a case, you will want something more likely to end the threat. If you think that possibility to remote to bother with, then your choices become wider. Nothing will absolutely guarantee that the gun will end the threat. But your probabilities are increased by making certain choices. It's all about the risk you are willing to take in the circumstances in which you might find yourself.

Casual Shooter: Yes, there's always the "Mossad argument." The CIA is reported to have used High Standard 22s for the same purpose. But there is a huge difference between choosing a gun for an assassination and choosing one for self defense. The assassin knows what he will do, the victim of an attack very often does not know when he will be attacked, or how. The assassin generally plans his attack in a way where he controls the place, the range, or even whether the victim sees him or not. From the assassin's point of view, the choice of weapon may be a long range scoped sniper rifle or a little Beretta 22 semiautomatic, depending on his opportunities and capabilities.

The defender must choose a weapon with which he or she can respond to an unknown threat, which may take many forms. This is why the Mossad argument is not very helpful -- to say that because the Mossad uses a 22 Beretta, it is the best self defense weapon. This is like saying the best car to drive to work is a Formula 1 race car, because Lewis Hamilton has won many Grand Prix championships driving one. The circumstances and the entire situation is not the same, beyond there being a gun (or a car) under consideration for achieving a purpose.

[timmy]

I must add that I have misread your post -- your question about carrying your 32 with an empty chamber refers to a revolver, and if you are carrying an IOF revolver, this is what you must do. Being a double action pistol, you can bring it to action with the pull of a trigger, so both hands to rack the slide isn't necessary. This would be necessary were you to leave an empty chamber in the Webley pistol, which you would also need to do if that pistol doesn't have a positive safety that prevents an unwanted discharge and is easily set to fire quickly, like, say, a 1911.

Regarding multiple 22 LR vs two or three 32s, I don't know about any data on such a comparison, but personally, I would take the 32.

Another factor might be the concealability and handiness of a pistol versus your IOF revolver.

[dev]

Mark my words ..for a trained assasin like Mossad hit squad .22 is a choice of weapon, as they are very well aware where to shoot , how much to shoot, doube tap in sternum or a single head shot from .22 will be perfect but i think the barrell length must be 4 inches not less, wolvorene for example....

Yes, but the problem is that we aren't ex-special forces and won't be able to fire even one round under stress, let alone place precise shots to the sternum or in the head. So one's best bet would be to carry as big a cal as one can manage and practice drawing and getting to point of aim. Please realize that in an actual situation, you would have adrenalin pumping, too.

[Able]

Interesting topic, and a very informative healthy discussion. I cannot say which one is better but suppose I were in a position where an angry bear is charging at me, my obvious choice would be .32 (and the same for any other defensive situation).

And as for OP's question, I have no idea about the price nor has seen it at local dealers.

[dev]

Interesting topic, and a very informative healthy discussion. I cannot say which one is better but suppose I were in a position where an angry bear is charging at me, my obvious choice would be .32 (and the same for any other defensive situation).

And as for OP's question, I have no idea about the price nor has seen it at local dealers.

If an angry bear chases you please file the foresight of your .32 down.

[Peacefulguns]

I am veering towards sticking to the .32 calibre. Waiting for the Taurus .32 to launch which should rationalise the price somewhat. Hopefully.

[casual shooter]

Sir, Taurus 32 has been launched already..

[Peacefulguns]

I meant the revolver.