Indians For Guns

Dear Experts;
Kindly suggest which is better pistol to carry for self defence between single and double action pistol?
Regards !!

I am aware that there are a very few 'double action' pistols also available. But I have no idea if they are popular enough to have a presence in India. Hope some seniors could through some light on it. It would be a new leaning.

Regards

Atul

There are actually plenty of double action, and double action only, pistols available these days. Though probably not found in India. A double action pistol is probably a better option for a self defense weapon; and they are inherently safer.

But if it is to be used for self defense. isn't a double action pistol be much slower to repeat shots?
I would also like a clarification that in a 'double action only' pistol would the hammer have to be manually cocked before each shot??

Regards

Atul

Not if you aim. One hit trumps a dozen misses. That would be "single action", if you have to manually cock the hammer in order to fire. Only revolvers are made that way. A "double action only" does not allow the hammer (if it has one) to be cocked. Firing is by (long) pull of the trigger only. A double action pistol allows the first shot to be fired with a long trigger pull without having to cock the hammer, with the hammer being cocked by the slide for subsequent shots with a short trigger pull.

Kushal, Atul, and all:

May I also answer from another perspective? Please bear with me, and I will start from the beginning, so that I can get warmed up.

"Single action" refers to a firearm in which the trigger has a single function: it holds the hammer or striker in the cocked position and releases it when the trigger is pulled.

"Double action" refers to a firearm in which the trigger not only holds the trigger or striker cocked and releases the hammer, but also cocks the hammer or striker. The trigger serves two functions so the action is called a double action.

Revolvers first came in single action: the hammer had to be thumbed back to cock it manually, and then the trigger was pulled to release the hammer and fire the gun. This is like the famous Colt Single Action Army, featured in so many cowboy movies.

Then, double action revolvers, like the Colt Lightning and Thunderer, were developed, where the trigger also cocked the hammer and then released it to fire the gun.

Next, semiautomatic pistols came out. They were usually single action, and the hammer was cocked by pulling the slide back and releasing it (which also loaded a cartridge into the chamber). Of course, the hammer only had to be cocked to fire the first shot, because the operation of the slide would cock the hammer for subsequent rounds.

Because the hammer had to be manually cocked for the first round (even though this is usually accomplished by pulling the slide back and releasing it), these pistols are considered single action, because the trigger has only one function.

The problem with these single action semiauto pistols was similar to the earlier one facing revolvers: sometimes one wants to carry the gun cocked and ready for action, but the design of the mechanism makes it dangerous to carry the gun in this way. Safety catches usually prevent the trigger from being pulled or block the sear (which some guns use as an additional part of the lock between the trigger and the hammer), which makes the gun unsafe if dropped. The small surface used for the trigger (or sear) to hold the hammer back makes the trigger easy to pull, but is easily broken if the gun falls or is struck in some way. This will make the gun go off inadvertently, sometimes with very sad results.

The Colt 1911 "Government Model" was one of the first guns to alleviate this problem. When the hammer was cocked, the safety also blocked the hammer positively from falling with a piece of solid steel, making the gun quite safe. It became common to carry the 1911 "cocked and locked." This meant that all one needed to do was flick the safety off with the thumb just before firing, which is very simple and easily accomplished with only a little training.

However, some folks wanted an easier system and the double action automatic was developed. An early example of this is the Walther PP, of which the famous PPK is a smaller, lighter derivative. For these pistols, a loaded magazine is inserted into the gun. The slide is pulled back and released to load a cartridge into the chamber. Then, a "decocking lever" is operated, which drops the hammer, but stops it from falling so far that it hits the firing pin. The hammer isn't cocked at this point and no safety is engaged. When it is wanted to fire the gun, the trigger is pulled. As in the double action revolver, the first part of the trigger pull cocks the hammer and the rest of the pull releases it. Subsequently, the hammer is cocked by operation of the slide in recoil, as in the single action revolver.

This same principle also is used for "striker fired" pistols. A striker replaces the hammer in these guns. This is like a bolt action rifle, where the firing pin is modified to act as a hammer. But in these striker fired pistols, there is a mechanism that cocks and then releases the striker, so whether the pistol has a striker or hammer, it operates with the same double action, where the trigger both cocks and fires the pistol.

A variation on this is the double action only striker fired pistol, where the striker is never cocked by the slide. All firing is done from double action, where the trigger cocks and drops the striker. There is no single action mode. This makes the lock more simple and, according to some makers like Glock, safer. A striker fired pistol can be handier, with no projecting hammer to get caught on anything and cause the pistol to either fire inadvertently or get jammed and fail to fire.

What is better? I like the Colt 1911 design. But in India, as I said, where you will be limited by the kinds of guns available, their prices, and what ammunition is available, I think a Walther PPK or Czech CZ 50/CZ 70 would be close to being ideal. They are small, lightweight, and easily carried. They are well made. You can get ammunition for them.

Because of problems with 9mm handguns in India and the availability of .380 (which isn't a lot more powerful than .32 ACP anyway), if I wanted something more powerful than a 32 ACP, I would look for a Czech CZ 52. It has 9mm power and is safe to carry with a round in the chamber, unlike the TT 33 "Star" pistol. The 7.62x25 cartridge is quite potent for a handgun and has great penetration (which can also cause problems). There a a lot of little parts in a CZ 52, but they are well made and if you find one in good shape, it will last and be reliable. It is a single action pistol, however. Don't dry fire it, either, or as with its little brother, you will soon be buying a new firing pin for it.

Note: about double action taking longer to fire, I think it compares well with single action, if you do some practice. The common technique that I use with my Colt Detective Special double action revolver is to place the second joint of the index finger on the trigger. The first joint, which is normally on the trigger, wraps around the trigger and beside it. With practice, you will know when the let off for the double action trigger pull is because a certain part of the tip of your trigger finger will touch the frame when the trigger is about to break. You will have a good idea when the gun is about to fire in this way and you will be able to shoot quickly and accurately with this method.

Tim, thanks for the lovely write up. As usual it cleared a lot of doubts and answered a lot of questions.

Regards

Atul

Dear Timmy
Thanks a million for such detailed info. Really Learned a Lot !!
Thaks once again with regards
Kushal

@timmy, Thanks for the valuable information. But why didn't you talk about the Single action/double action pistols, as it the only type of pistol I have found in my posession. Its my father's CZ Rami with a decocker. How do you rate SA/DA pistols when it comes to self defense? Also, please tell me how to carry a SA/DA or DA pistol that doesn't have a manual safety? Should we manually drop the hammer all the way to the top with our thumb or should we use the decocker and carry it half cocked? Is half cock a carry position? CZ Rami with a decocker doesn't have a manual safety so carrying fully cocked is out of question. One last question, are CZ pistols dry fire safe?

Dear Armed Defence,
Every time I see your post I feel so Jealous. You guys in Pakistan are having a good time with guns, whereas, here we are a gun and ammo starved nation.
Don't you guys have a policy like the one, implemented in the Nepal earthquake. Life support systems were provided by the world.
You know your neighbors are starved, may be not as a Country but individuals could contribute.

Regards

Atul

Armed Defense: A DA pistol with decocker you would carry loaded and decocked. There is no half-cock. Letting the hammer down with the thumb while pulling the trigger is not a good choice when the pistol has a decocker. Likewise with DAO, they are safe to carry with a round in the chamber. Nothing can happen until you pull the trigger.

xl_target wrote:

Armed Defence wrote:@timmy, Thanks for the valuable information. But why didn't you talk about the Single action/double action pistols, as it the only type of pistol I have found in my posession. Its my father's CZ Rami with a decocker. How do you rate SA/DA pistols when it comes to self defense? Also, please tell me how to carry a SA/DA or DA pistol that doesn't have a manual safety? Should we manually drop the hammer all the way to the top with our thumb or should we use the decocker and carry it half cocked? Is half cock a carry position? CZ Rami with a decocker doesn't have a manual safety so carrying fully cocked is out of question. One last question, are CZ pistols dry fire safe?

Your CZ RAMI is perfectly safe to carry with a round in the chamber, when decocked.
As Two Rivers mentions, always use the decocker. NEVER manually try to lower the hammer.
When decocked, the hammer will be back a little bit, kinda like a half cock position. It will not be resting on the firing pin.
This results in a shorter trigger reach and less effort for that first double action pull.


This is a photo of my CZ P-06 with the hammer in the decocked position.
It is perfectly safe to carry it like this.

Keep in mind that even if the hammer were to rest on the firing pin, the firing pin cannot move forward till the trigger is pulled all the way back.

When the trigger is all the way back, it pushes a metal stop out of a cutout in the firing pin.
Once this metal stop (called a firing pin block) is out of the way, the firing pin is free to move.
This can only happen when the trigger is all the way back. At all other times, the firing pin is blocked.


Yes, you can dry fire it.
If you are going to dry fire a lot, CZ advises against dry firing without a snap cap.
If you don't have a snap cap, use a foam earplug between the hammer and the firing pin and then fire away.

Armed Defence: Many pistols now can be dry fired safely. I do know that the older CZ 50/CZ 70 and CZ 52 pistols should not be dry fired, as the firing pins are brittle and will break. This is why, online, you can find replacement firing pins for them.

Revolvers with the firing pin attached to the hammer should not be dry fired, either. Use snap caps for these, too.

Go by what the manufacturer recommends for new guns, so your warranty will remain to cover you.

NEVER use a half cock as a safety!

Modern DA revolvers are safe to carry fully loaded. This became true when Colt introduced the Police Positive in 1905. Starting with this model, Colt introduced a blocking link that positively kept the hammer's firing pin from ever hitting a cartridge unless the trigger was fully pulled. Most DA semi auto pistols I'm aware of, and the old CZ 52 as well, have a similar feature and are safe with a round in the chamber.

Striker fired modern pistols have similar safety provisions that positively lock the striker unless the trigger is pulled. It's best, however to understand the way any gun works so that you can judge what is safe and what's not.

Many single action pistols are not safe to carry with a round in the chamber. What is critical is what can happen when the gun is dropped. Then, it is possible that the gun can fire because either the full cock or half cock notch in the hammer is easily broken by the force of a fall, and the sear that engages it is also easily broken. Unless the safety positively blocks the hammer itself with a piece of steel, I would not carry it with a round in the chamber. This problem rules out many older semi auto pistols for self defense, because who wants to take the time to rack the slide to load the pistol when a self defense situation arises?

Armed Defense,
Keep in mind that with your RAMI, you can drop it on its hammer, break the half cock notch and it will not fire.
The proper way to carry it is with a round in the chamber and with the hammer decocked.
It absolutely will not fire unless the trigger is all the way back.

Thank you all for replying and providing me highly needed advice.

@two Rivers. You said the decocker decocks the pistol and there is no half cock. Then what does this term half cock mean? When we pull the hammer of a CZ Rami down a little bit with our thumb, it stops or gets stuck in halfway, before going down further. This would be true for many other DA and SA/DA pistols also. Is this halfway position the half cock? There is a halfway stop in some single action pistols also, as in a TT, and the pistol doesn't fire in that position. Is that the half cock?

@xl_target and timmy. Thanks for the info on dry fire and firing pin block

@aadhaulya. My prayers are with NAGRI and all the gun right activists in India. I hope one day you people will be successful in getting the laws relaxed.